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Yeah but y'all are all "he was an interesting guy" -- I just felt it was necessary to point that out I guess

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Thanks, I honestly could not remember. I'm trying to break myself from using hazy internet memories. Because I do it way too much. 

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2 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

Yeah but y'all are all "he was an interesting guy" -- I just felt it was necessary to point that out I guess

Bad people can be interesting. 

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4 minutes ago, Victator said:

Thanks, I honestly could not remember. I'm trying to break myself from using hazy internet memories. Because I do it way too much. 

I don't know if Dynamite talked about it in his book b/c it's been a while since I read it. I have Bret's on my Kindle so was able to look that part up pretty easily. I wouldn't be completely surprised if there was another incident as well. Bret talked about how after a while, he and Julie didn't like taking their kids over to Dynamite's house and eventually quit going over there b/c Dynamite would sit on the back porch drunk as shit and shooting jackrabbits even though the kids were playing in a sandbox not too far from there. 

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2 minutes ago, cwoy2j said:

Bad people can be interesting. 

Usually most interesting. 

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1 minute ago, cwoy2j said:

I don't know if Dynamite talked about it in his book b/c it's been a while since I read it. I have Bret's on my Kindle so was able to look that part up pretty easily. I wouldn't be completely surprised if there was another incident as well. Bret talked about how after a while, he and Julie didn't like taking their kids over to Dynamite's house and eventually quit going over there b/c Dynamite would sit on the back porch drunk as shit and shooting jackrabbits even though the kids were playing in a sandbox not too far from there. 

I do remember him saying his marriage went to shit and I think (its been a few years) that he did some bad shit. 

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I'm reading this now:

Development Hell: The NXT Story

This is about the history of the WWE developmental program in general (OVW, DSW, FCW, etc.), not just NXT.

There probably won't be any new information if you've regularly followed "insider" wrestling news over the years, but it's fascinating to see it all researched and put into one place.

The author really digs in though and includes commentary quotes from the obscure early NXT "reality show" seasons.

One thing that struck out at me was CM Punk burying Layla on commentary by calling some nonsense on the show "the first good thing she's ever done" or words to that effect. I won't pretend I was ever a major Layla fan, but I thought LayCool was a pretty effective act, and this really exposes both Punk and WWE back then as misogynistic and bullying. For how heavy-handed the "Divas Revolution" and "Women's Evolution" are, it really is amazing to see compared to the way women were treated in the company only a few years ago.

But seemingly everyone was buried on the reality show abortion those early NXT shows were - including, obviously, Daniel Bryan at the hands of Michael Cole. What a bizarre, counterproductive, and downright stupid concept and waste of money and airtime that was. It's no accident that almost no one from those seasons of NXT became a real star.

Where I've reached in my reading: Triple H is about to take over the developmental program and establish the "real" NXT (Chapter 14).

The book is "free" with Kindle Unlimited if you want to give it a try.

 

 

 

 

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There's a story in AJ Lee's book (really good read BTW) about how she got her first main roster house show match because of Punk indirectly. She was on the tour doing crowd hype stuff, and one night whoever the women actually doing the one divas match on the show were had a terrible match and Punk got pissed, threw a water bottle through the screen of a monitor and started screaming about them needing to find women who can wrestle.

So the agents put AJ in the ring the next night. Punk liked the match. This accomplished nothing for her career.

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AJ's book is fantastic. There isn't that much wrestling content in it, but that almost doesn't matter because it's still such a raw, compelling read.

I agree that Punk had a right to be frustrated by all of the terrible women who were wrestling back then - I just don't think LayCool deserves to be lumped in that category. They were great characters and decent in the ring for the standards of the time.

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Michelle was pretty good. Layla eventually caught up.

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In the context of the book does Punk throwing a water bottle through a TV set because he saw a bad wrestling match seem normal and not crazy? I can have a pretty short fuse, often about admittedly inconsequential stuff, but I tend to tamp it down when I'm at work. 

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20 minutes ago, (BP) said:

In the context of the book does Punk throwing a water bottle through a TV set because he saw a bad wrestling match seem normal and not crazy? I can have a pretty short fuse, often about admittedly inconsequential stuff, but I tend to tamp it down when I'm at work. 

There is literally no other context.

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1 hour ago, C.S. said:

One thing that struck out at me was CM Punk burying Layla on commentary by calling some nonsense on the show "the first good thing she's ever done" or words to that effect. I won't pretend I was ever a major Layla fan, but I thought LayCool was a pretty effective act, and this really exposes both Punk and WWE back then as misogynistic and bullying.

Valid criticism = misogynistic and bullying? FFS... 

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3 minutes ago, CreativeControl said:

Valid criticism = misogynistic and bullying? FFS... 

Because it's bullshit, and not even a remotely valid criticism.

LayCool was the best women's act on the roster by a mile (not exactly hard to accomplish, granted, but they were good by any metric).

If you don't think women were generaly presented in an extremely misogynistic and dated fashion a few years ago in WWE, I'm not sure what to tell you.

 

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I get that, but using that comment specifically to point it out and in an era that was so much different to the lows of the attitude era? No. 

Away from that, Cornette has made a comment or five about wishing he'd had NXT's budget when he ran OVW. Looking back at all the developmental systems and lack of structure or support given, it really needed Triple H taking it over as a project to get any kind of support

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2 hours ago, C.S. said:

Because it's bullshit, and not even a remotely valid criticism.

Maybe he sincerely didn't like them. 

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8 hours ago, CreativeControl said:

I get that, but using that comment specifically to point it out and in an era that was so much different to the lows of the attitude era? No. 

Away from that, Cornette has made a comment or five about wishing he'd had NXT's budget when he ran OVW. Looking back at all the developmental systems and lack of structure or support given, it really needed Triple H taking it over as a project to get any kind of support

It wasn't as sexist/degrading/etc. as the Attitude Era was for women, but that's because: 1. Vince Russo was gone, and anyone else was bound to be an improvement when it came to tastefulness, and 2. WWE was now PG. But the women were still relegated to three-minute matches as used as bathroom break sideshow acts. Sexism and misogyny doesn't only entail being thrown into mud pit matches - the women were still marginalized in a myriad of ways after the Attitude Era was over and Russo was gone. 

Anyway, I've seen those Cornette comments too, and he's right to think that. Developmental, like the women, was just there and had no real support behind it. It's ridiculous how primitive DSW and FCW were - poor working conditions, not enough live events, very little that was conducive to actual learning. Out of all the pre-NXT developmental leagues, OVW under both Cornette and Heyman probably had the best track record. The problem there was that there was a massive disconnect between what was happening in OVW and how the characters would be treated and used on Raw and Smackdown (with the Basham Brothers being one of the primary examples).

The Development Hell book I posted about above is actually a pretty interesting look at the history of WWE Developmental. Nothing new necessarily if you've followed "insider" news long enough, but it's still enjoyable reading about the evolution of the program.

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You also had Johnny Ace hiring swimsuit models and such in the post Attitude Era. 

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11 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

You also had Johnny Ace hiring swimsuit models and such in the post Attitude Era. 

I was thinking about why the agents wouldn't let the women do certain common maneuvers for ages. It's easy to say it was some kind of antiquated sexism, but I think they were genuinely worried a lot of the nonwrestler women that were hired during that time would cripple each other. 

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2 hours ago, C.S. said:

But the women were still relegated to three-minute matches as used as bathroom break sideshow acts.

A longer match would be a war crime. 

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You guys act like there were only shitty models during that era, but there were some good wrestlers too. I agree, though - there were definitely more shitty models than good wrestlers.

In AJ's book, she talked about how frustrating it was to be passionate about wrestling because that was seemingly used against her.

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I think the most amazing thing is that, somehow, Nikki Bella eventually became really good.

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On 3/23/2018 at 6:57 AM, C.S. said:

LayCool was the best women's act on the roster by a mile (not exactly hard to accomplish, granted, but they were good by any metric).

That's not how you spell Beth Phoenix and Natalya.

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9 hours ago, C.S. said:

You guys act like there were only shitty models during that era, but there were some good wrestlers too. I agree, though - there were definitely more shitty models than good wrestlers.

In AJ's book, she talked about how frustrating it was to be passionate about wrestling because that was seemingly used against her.

I kinda poke fun at them during that time. But some were good and the others worked hard. Even the models who stayed worked hard. So anything I say is in good fun. 

A lot of AJ Lee's stuff comes across as hollow with how she buried anyone she worked with. Actions say more than words. 

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