Victator Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Bret did good work with guys like Booker and Benoit. He had a pretty good match with Van Hammer. I thought the Starrcade match with Goldberg was one of Goldberg's best. Where it is not just extended power moves, but really working a match. Compare it to the awful matches Triple H had with Goldberg in 03. Where he tried to be Flair without the talent. If Owen had not been killed and the concussion did not happen, I think Bret would have been back in the WWF and his legacy would be different. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brysynner Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 5 minutes ago, mattdangerously said: 1997-2000 Bret had the WM13 match (better than any of Orton's matches), the Montreal match with HBK (which was pretty good until the ending), and the Owen tribute match. He was still doing exceptional work right up until his last match. Yeah, his WCW run was largely unexceptional, but they had no idea what how to use him, and it's hard to blame him if he had a hard time staying motivated. Can you imagine how few fucks Orton would have to give if he was around for the dying days of WCW? He'd make Kevin Nash look like Bryan Danielson. The Hart Foundation formed AFTER Mania 13 thereby allowing me to exclude it from the timeframe. I think you're severly underrating Orton though, even when he doesn't give a fuck, if he's working with someone who's not a bottom feeder he'll put on a good show. 3 minutes ago, Victator said: Bret did good work with guys like Booker and Benoit. He had a pretty good match with Van Hammer. I thought the Starrcade match with Goldberg was one of Goldberg's best. Where it is not just extended power moves, but really working a match. Compare it to the awful matches Triple H had with Goldberg in 03. Where he tried to be Flair without the talent. If Owen had not been killed and the concussion did not happen, I think Bret would have been back in the WWF and his legacy would be different. Montreal really derailed the Hart Foundation which goes back to how preventable Montreal really was by Vince. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafkonia Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 1 hour ago, L_W_P said: La Familia and The Cabinet were definitely better than Legacy. Does the Dungeon of Doom count or are they in a different category because they only existed to feed Hogan? League of Nations probably gets my vote though. That was 4 legit main event talents and it totally bombed. Take out Del Rio, throw in Cesaro and call them the "European Union" and it probably works alot better. I exclude the Dungeon of Doom on the grounds that I said the last 15 years, not the last 25. League of Nations is a good call, though. I didn't even think of them as "main event level", that's how bad it was. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 10 minutes ago, Brysynner said: The Hart Foundation formed AFTER Mania 13 thereby allowing me to exclude it from the timeframe. I think you're severly underrating Orton though, even when he doesn't give a fuck, if he's working with someone who's not a bottom feeder he'll put on a good show. I think Orton is the best worker WWE has right now. But Bret was on another level. 2 minutes ago, kafkonia said: I exclude the Dungeon of Doom on the grounds that I said the last 15 years, not the last 25. I love any gang that has John Tenta, Big Bubba, One Man Gang, Meng and Barbarian. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zev Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Are any of Roddy Piper's kids currently in the wrestling business? I know Colton had some matches a couple years ago but no idea if he's in any promotion currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Brysynner said: What real success did the Hart Foundation have? Bret won the WWF Championship without their help. Outside of Bret and maybe Owen that group wasn't that impressive That's like saying without Jordan and Pippen the Bulls weren't very impressive. The Hart Foundation was the greatest collection of talent since Dangerous Alliance. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodzillaPerez Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Johnny K9 has died I don't think he'll be getting a graphic on Raw. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattdangerously Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 55 minutes ago, Brysynner said: The Hart Foundation formed AFTER Mania 13 thereby allowing me to exclude it from the timeframe. I think you're severly underrating Orton though, even when he doesn't give a fuck, if he's working with someone who's not a bottom feeder he'll put on a good show. Orton is very good, but outside of his preturnatural sense of timing, there is nothing he does better than even late-era Bret. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorceressKnight Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 2 hours ago, L_W_P said: I actually think Teddy Jr would have been better with a babyface run before his time was up. They had something going with the tailgating gimmick and I think a better push from that could have seen him in the upper card again. That seemed less like the tailgating gimmick was a failure and more that "Ted DiBiase was the biggest victim of the brand split ending the first time". He was doing well in the gimmick, catching fire, and looked to be something- but then he got injured around the time that the split ended, and when he came back he lost his spot entirely and was DOA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caley Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 I'm kinda failing to understand how a stable that, during their 7 months together -Held the tag titles for 2 months -Held the intercontinental title for about 6 of those months (Two reigns) -Held the European title for 5 months -Held the World Title for 3 or so months -Had a member in the main event of 5 of the 9 PPVs (In Your House Revenge of the Taker; IYH Canadian Stampede; Summerslam; One Night Only; Survivor Series) that occured during their tenure is inferior to Legacy?! It's also kinda disingenuous to say that Legacy helped its members more than Hart Foundation did, considering the extenuating circumstances around things with the HF (The Montreal Screwjob made it impossible for Neidhart and Smith to stay around, the former who was just hired to further the angle, the latter who was on the downswing of his career; Pillman died, and Owen was more over than he ever was when he came back, then shuffled down into the midcard with still upper-card potential before his death). If you don't do the Montreal Screwjob, Pillman still dies, Neidhart probably doesn't last too much longer, but you could plug some of the young Canadians WWE was training at the time (Edge, Christian, Glenn Kulka) into the group and likely elevate them, plus Owen probably doesn't ever become the Blue Blazer without Bret's departure, you could even have him take over leadership from Bret, and turn Bret back face (After Shawn retires), or have him ally with McMahon to battle Stone Cold. Though, in that scenario, there's a pretty good chance Mick Foley never becomes World champion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattdangerously Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Also, the Hart Foundation angle helped make Austin the biggest star in the history of wrestling. Who did Legacy make? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sydneybrown Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 1 minute ago, mattdangerously said: Also, the Hart Foundation angle helped make Austin the biggest star in the history of wrestling. Who did Legacy make? The 2009 version of DX. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 I legitimately forgot Legacy existed until Yo-Yo mentioned them in his ongoing b-ppv reviews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twiztor Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 18 hours ago, cwoy2j said: Armaggedon 99-6 Man Hell in a Cell, Vince vs. HHH in the match where Stephanie turned plus The Kat taking off her top the 6 man HIAC match was at Armageddon 2000. the other mains for '99 were Big Show/Bossman and Outlaws/Rock n Sock. i forgive you for blanking on those 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurningBeard Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 7 hours ago, kafkonia said: Reading the IYH network thread and it got me thinking - is Legacy the most unsuccessful main event stable of of the last fifteen years or so? They had Orton, who was already main event level; Ted Dibiase, who never got much of anywhere; Cody, who plateau'd at upper midcard and then floundered; and two guys so forgettable they were basically there just to get kicked out. It was really a poor man's Evolution, and showed that Orton isn't cut out to be a building block around that sort of thing. He's better on his own or as a high-ranking lackey (Evolution; Authority; Wyatt Family.) I was thinking the exact same thing to be honest - if ever a stable was set up to be a success it was Legacy purely by extension of how favourable second-gen talent are treated but it was mishandled from the get-go and no one ever seemed to go that extra mile. Plus you absolutely nailed it - Orton is not a leader of men and is not cut out for any kind of mentorship role. On top of that I think they positioned it all wrong, it should've been a bunch of spoiled frat-boy/Paris Hilton-esque characters mistreating those 'beneath them' rather than whatever the hell it was Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 9 hours ago, GodzillaPerez said: Johnny K9 has died I don't think he'll be getting a graphic on Raw. Way too late for the death pool I had him in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 Quote Former WWE star Kelly Kelly has confirmed that she’ll be at WrestleMania 33, as well as the Hall of Fame ceremony this year — and she also wants to make a short return to the company. Kelly — aka Barbie Blank — appeared on Sirius XM’s show Conversation with Maria Menounos and was asked about all the rumors that have popped up since she was backstage at Raw. “I don’t know if I’m gonna be wrestling, per se, but I will be at Mania.” Adding, “I will be at Mania, I will be at Hall of Fame and I’m gonna do some Axxess signings.” The ex-Divas champ tip-toed around saying she’d be inducting a friend into the HOF, but Maria hinted that she already knew because she’s helping that women prepare her style for the event. Barbie also says she was repeatedly asked about her interest in a return last week — admitting Senior Director of Talent Relations Mark Carrano was one of the people asking — and she told them, “I would come back for like a run, ya’know, a mini-run or something.” Brace yourselves. http://www.prowrestlingsheet.com/kelly-kelly-hall-fame-mania-mini-run/#.WK6UFxIrJE4?platform=hootsuite 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 BTW - the new WON that just came out might be the most depressing one ever The first FOUR stories are all obits of some kind Ivan Koloff George Steele Johnny K-9 Nicole Bass Dave said that due to space - the full George Steele obit and more on Chavo Sr will happen over the next few weeks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakk_Sabbath Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 I like watching Randy Orton a whole hell of a lot more these days than I did, let's say, 7-10 years ago, but to say he's overall better than Bret is near-blasphemous, in my opinion. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playa Shunna Ver 3.0 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Wow. It would be amazzing if Kelly Kelly gets in the WWE HOF. Haha. What a fuckshop..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwoy2j Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 6 hours ago, twiztor said: the 6 man HIAC match was at Armageddon 2000. the other mains for '99 were Big Show/Bossman and Outlaws/Rock n Sock. i forgive you for blanking on those Yeah you're right. Can't believe I flubbed that as I was actually there. Also on that card, there was a pretty good Kane/X-Pac cage match, Jericho won the IC belt from Chyna and Kurt Angle had his 2nd ppv match ever against Steve Blackman. Being there live, it seemed like the Vince/HHH match took forfuckingever. I looked up the match time and it clocked in at almost 29 minutes. You ever watch a long match and are shocked by how long it went b/c it seemed to fly by? This was the opposite of that. Lots of walking around and brawling plus they set up some contrived thing where HHH lured Vince to the back so he could attempt to hit him with a car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehabilitated Rick Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 There's like three guys on Smackdown alone that's better than Orton (AJ, Cena & Harper). To say Orton is better than Bret is absolute madness and I like Orton 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 2nd in the series the WWE is doing now (the Finn Balor one last week was last week) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig H Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Wait...Who is saying Orton is better than Bret? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, Craig H said: Wait...Who is saying Orton is better than Bret? Brysynner Go back a page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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