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REBOOTED Feb 2017 Wrestling Discussion


RIPPA
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I do know Jeff Cobb, and I like him. As you say, pity that he's so short. It's also through him that I got to know Timothy Thatcher, who I also love, and the aforementioned Keith Lee, who seems like he's got a lot of potential... but really needs some better trunks.

Thanks for the suggestions so far. I'll check 'em all out.

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1 hour ago, Web Conn said:

I've seen Jeff Cobb live, hes super talented and really fucking strong, he was throwing his opponent around, who was taller then him and I don't think weighed that much less than him, like it was nothing.

Yeah, dude was crazy over too. My mate who doesn't know dick about the indies (even less than me) was chanting "JEFF! JEFF! JEFF!"

granted, it's not the most complicated chant. 

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My son LOVES Jeff Cobb, just based on him tossing people around. I think he's got a long career ahead of him, definitely gonna hit the big time one day, although he's already in his mid 30s somehow...

Also he's a super nice dude, so it's double funny that friendly short dude is the goddamn Monster Matanza in LU. The power of good booking!

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15 hours ago, Victator said:

It also doesn't change the fact the same people over hyping the current generation, were over hyping the last generation. 

Personally, I think this is a WWE problem, not a WWE women problem.  I feel like there's more male wrestlers in the WWE overrated by fans simply because they're in the WWE.  It's a big world and there's an awful lot of wrestlers out there who aren't in the WWE system.  There are dozens - at least - of luchadores, Japanese wrestlers, women, indys guys, Brits and Europeans, etc. that I would rank ahead of almost every WWE midcarder,   My personal top 100 for 2016 would probably have six or eight of the usual suspects from the WWE ranked fairly high, and a couple midcarders like Dean Ambrose who might sneak in 90-100, but probably not.  Hell, there are a couple guys in Fight Club Finland I'd probably put ahead of Ambrose.

I don't think anyone in the WWE is actively terrible.  The 'E is pretty good at recognizing talent (not always the best at maximizing talent, but that's another discussion).  You don't get signed, survive through developmental, and make a name for yourself on the main roster unless you're at least decent and have a reasonably well-rounded skill set.  But I do feel like the WWE system produces a lot of guys closer to average than exceptional, then works overtime to convince fans that those same guys are exceptional and no one in the system is average.

Of course, this is just my personal opinion.  I'm not a "My fake fighting is better than your fake fighting guy" so it's entirely possible I'm underrating WWE wrestlers.  In some cases, that almost certainly is true.  Bray Wyatt would probably not make my personal top 300 or so active guys, but he's fairly over and decent in the ring, so obviously mileage varies a lot in his case.

 

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Edit: Double post.  I'll put something useful here eventually.

Edit 2: What the hell?   Heimo Ukonselkä was on WWE TV?  I have no memory of this (apparently, this segment was only the app)

hqdefault.jpg

I really want Vince to sign Ukonselkä but he's kinda got the same issue Dave Mastiff has.  He looks like he's a monster when he's in whatever ring he's in, but he's not actually a huge guy.  He's billed at 6'3", 230 so he would look less monstrous in with a guy like Corbin or Stroman.

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11 hours ago, Go2Sleep said:

call total bullshit on all of this. If you could find even one match that would be considered one of WCW's best that fits the description in the first sentence, I'd be amazed. If you polled 100 fans on a WCW top 50 or whatever, the vast majority of matches are going to be from a PPV/A-show between wrestlers WCW put effort into getting over.

Because more people saw them. Get it? 

 

 

11 hours ago, Go2Sleep said:

The second sentence is just pure insanity that is completely disproved through the entirety of wrestling history. Wrestling is performance art, presentation is everything. To pick an easy example, look at the nearly non-existent number of high-end matches from WCW in late 99/2000. No one can dispute there was talent on the roster, but the backstage turmoil and writing tanked the show.

There were high end matches in 99/00 WCW. But you had to be patient and sort thru a lot of crap. 

 

11 hours ago, Go2Sleep said:

Who even was the last generation prior to the NXT era? AJ Lee, The Bellas, Alicia Fox, Nattie, and Eve Torres? I don't remember anyone hyping them.

Really? Because you can check threads on this forum where people were putting over Nikki and even Brie as good wrestlers. Some people were so far up AJ Lee's ass they have their mail sent there. Hell I am sure there are people still willing to say she is not the worst thing ever. That was a terrible example for you to use. 

It seems like your argument is this current generation is the best because WWE says it is. 

I said a few years back, a certain segment of fans perceive talent how WWE books them. That is why guys like Jack Swagger can have high end matches for years, then people poo on him after WWE buries him for awhile. 

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11 hours ago, The Comedian said:

Are you guys arguing about gymnastics in the wrestling forum again? What have I told you about that?

Geez, it's always gymnastics, gymnastics, gymnastics with you guys...

I wonder what kind of burger joints gymnasts go to on cheat day?

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Is there a reason WWE has not looked at Kongo Kong? He is huge and can work. I mean his weight can't be an issue, they push Owens. 

I saw him have a match with a guy named HyZaya, who seemed to have good size working a kickboxer gimmick. 

It is hard to tell how big guys are on the indy circuit. Ken Doane looked as big as Brock on a King Of Trios card. Then he turns back up on Smackdown and is average WWE size.

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13 minutes ago, bobholly138 said:

There's a guy working the AL indies as Donald Trumps nephew. He got booked for last summers Wrestle Birmingham show. The promoter was sure he would be a heel. And well... that didn't happen.

 

Heel Trump Supporter in Alabama? 

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44 minutes ago, Victator said:

Because more people saw them. Get it?

There were high end matches in 99/00 WCW. But you had to be patient and sort thru a lot of crap.

1. I still doubt there's even one match that fits your description that you could get anything resembling a consensus on as being "one of WCW's best," let alone many matches. Maybe some of your personal favorites fit that description, but that would be a minority opinion to say the least.

2. We're making the exact same point. I said "nearly non-existent" as in there should've been many more given their roster, but the bad far outweighed the good due to how the company was run.

48 minutes ago, Victator said:

Really? Because you can check threads on this forum where people were putting over Nikki and even Brie as good wrestlers. Some people were so far up AJ Lee's ass they have their mail sent there. Hell I am sure there are people still willing to say she is not the worst thing ever. That was a terrible example for you to use. 


It seems like your argument is this current generation is the best because WWE says it is. 

I said a few years back, a certain segment of fans perceive talent how WWE books them. That is why guys like Jack Swagger can have high end matches for years, then people poo on him after WWE buries him for awhile. 

My argument is that this current generation is the best because there is a broad consensus among viewers that it is. I always look to the MOTY/Best of type threads to gauge people's real opinions, and you don't see women's matches in the discussion until 2015. There might very well have been some posters super into the pre-TD Bellas or AJ Lee, but certainly not enough to become a prevailing trend. At best, it's a 2016 Miz situation where people talk about how great he is in the weekly threads which are prone to hyperbole, but his name never comes up in the more focused, important topics.

The Swagger example is another point we're talking about two sides of the same coin. The reason no one thinks he has great matches anymore is because he doesn't get the opportunity. This is completely irrespective of my personal feelings about Jack Swagger.

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29 minutes ago, Go2Sleep said:

My argument is that this current generation is the best because there is a broad consensus among viewers that it is. I always look to the MOTY/Best of type threads to gauge people's real opinions, and you don't see women's matches in the discussion until 2015. There might very well have been some posters super into the pre-TD Bellas or AJ Lee, but certainly not enough to become a prevailing trend. At best, it's a 2016 Miz situation where people talk about how great he is in the weekly threads which are prone to hyperbole, but his name never comes up in the more focused, important topics.

The Swagger example is another point we're talking about two sides of the same coin. The reason no one thinks he has great matches anymore is because he doesn't get the opportunity. This is completely irrespective of my personal feelings about Jack Swagger.

The bigger difference, and it's hard to really say so if I dance around it, it's just...trying to be respectful for it...

In the modern era, fans are aware of women's struggles and own part of the fanbase more than they were in the last era...and as a result, it has changed things for debating on the current generations to focus more on the woman's talent and ability in the ring, and less on the talents' looks.

In those old eras- it was possible you'd have positively wretched wrestlers like Candice Michelle, Kelly Kelly, etc. sold as having improved so much less because they improved, and more because of how beautiful they were and how they were the face of the company.

Now, on the other hand- the Horsewomen or Emma and Paige, had all proven yes, yes they were very good wrestlers, independent on their looks. Even the more model trained ones like Alexa and Carmella had been seen through NXT and people SAW them improve to this point, and Smackdown's booking has let them blossom a bit more- and you can honestly say "yes, they've improved in the ring" without their looks.

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