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REBOOTED Feb 2017 Wrestling Discussion


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10 hours ago, Casey said:

CNN just ran a story about Corey Graves' brother, Sam Adonis, who wrestles in Mexico doing a pro-Trump gimmick. I'm not sure if he started the gimmick before or after Brian Cage, though. If Cage did do it first, I guess they did it on Sam because he wrestles mainly in Mexico now? I'm not sure. It was under 5 minutes long, and after it they showed Trump tackling Vince McMahon at WrestleMania 23 (but didn't mention that Vince's significant other is now a member of Trump's cabinet - dafuq?).

 

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25 minutes ago, Matt788 said:

Question for NJPW fans. What does Naito's hand to eye gesture mean? I have seen him do it many times and am puzzled by it. Thanks.

When he was working in Mexico, he was told he couldn't get over cause his eyes were too squinty. 

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25 minutes ago, Matt788 said:

Question for NJPW fans. What does Naito's hand to eye gesture mean? I have seen him do it many times and am puzzled by it. Thanks.

When he was working in Mexico, he was told he couldn't get over cause his eyes were too squinty. 

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From your post, I judge that you don't know what you're talking about, vis-a-vis sports that are decided by judges. Do you think they're judged by random people off the street, with no training or expert knowledge of what they're judging? Clue: They aren't. Moves are graded by difficulty, and the successful (or otherwise) execution of those moves is awarded a score based on set criteria. A properly programmed computer could score a Diving contest, or Rhythmic Gymnastics and select the proper winner just as well as a human judge.

Boxing and MMA (and everything in between) are actually much more subjective. The punches thrown/landed stats and percentage of centre control and all that, are a lot less statistically quantifiable.

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2 hours ago, Matt788 said:

Question for NJPW fans. What does Naito's hand to eye gesture mean? I have seen him do it many times and am puzzled by it. Thanks.

It goes back to his face gimmick 5 years ago where he was the "Stardust Genius", where he was pantomiming a monocule, because monocule = intelligence or something.

 

Then when he turned heel, joined Los Ingobernables and then started LIJ, he kept it half mocking the fans that caused the turn by still doing parts of his face gimmick that the fans shat on, and half symbolizing that "his eyes are open" to the bullshit that is pandering to the fans and the whole respect thing in NJPW.

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From your post, I judge that you don't know what you're talking about, vis-a-vis sports that are decided by judges. Do you think they're judged by random people off the street, with no training or expert knowledge of what they're judging? Clue: They aren't. Moves are graded by difficulty, and the successful (or otherwise) execution of those moves is awarded a score based on set criteria. A properly programmed computer could score a Diving contest, or Rhythmic Gymnastics and select the proper winner just as well as a human judge.

You think you could program a computer to judge the artistry of a routine?

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Boxing and MMA (and everything in between) are actually much more subjective. The punches thrown/landed stats and percentage of centre control and all that, are a lot less statistically quantifiable.

Which is irrelevant if you knock the other guy out. That's as objective as it gets.

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23 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

You think you could program a computer to judge the artistry of a routine?

It's not scored on the artistry but the degree of difficulty (which is measured objectively, not subjectively) and the execution of the routine.

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7 hours ago, Go2Sleep said:

After the blatantly sexist presentation died down after Lita's retirement, the women were still presented like an afterthought for another 6 years or so. It wasn't until WWE changed their approach from development to corporate that things drastically improved.

A lot of WCW's best matches happened on the B and C shows where the announcers were not even discussing the people in the matches. The corporate culture or whatever nonsense does not have an effect on the matches. 

It also doesn't change the fact the same people over hyping the current generation, were over hyping the last generation. 

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https://usagym.org/pages/events/pages/fig_scoring.html

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Under the new system, a gymnast’s total score includes values for both the routine’s content and his/her execution. Basically, the new scoring procedure adds the Difficulty Score, which includes difficulty, connection value and element requirements, to the Execution Score, which encompasses execution, artistry, composition and technique, to determine a gymnast’s total score.

 

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Speaking of past eras of women's wrestling, were there any women's matches from latter day WCW that are worth revisiting?  They had that blink and you miss it women's cruiserweight title and I remember various Japanese women coming in for one off performances but can't remember any actual matches or angles.

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4 hours ago, Raziel403 said:

It goes back to his face gimmick 5 years ago where he was the "Stardust Genius", where he was pantomiming a monocule, because monocule = intelligence or something.

 

Then when he turned heel, joined Los Ingobernables and then started LIJ, he kept it half mocking the fans that caused the turn by still doing parts of his face gimmick that the fans shat on, and half symbolizing that "his eyes are open" to the bullshit that is pandering to the fans and the whole respect thing in NJPW.

Huh!

I always assumed it was because his last name had 'eye' in it!  N-"eye"-to  I didn't realize there was that much more to it.

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5 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

Under the new system, a gymnast’s total score includes values for both the routine’s content and his/her execution. Basically, the new scoring procedure adds the Difficulty Score, which includes difficulty, connection value and element requirements, to the Execution Score, which encompasses execution, artistry, composition and technique, to determine a gymnast’s total score.

 

 

16 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

Good for her, but a sport requires more than physical urgency. If outcomes are determined entirely by subjective judging, it's not a sport.

 

14 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

Which is why I made sure to say "exclusively." You can win in UFC by knockout or submission. Nothing more objective than that.

So is it exclusively and entirely a subjective decision based on the artistry, or is that just one small factor in a sport that is mostly objectively judged on the difficulty of the chosen techniques and the precision of their execution? Because you seem to have allowed your argument to evolve from what it started as.

Also, not everyone in the UFC can win by Knockout or Submission. Georges St Pierre (the greatest Welterweight of all time) only famously one KO and no Subs in his five years as Welterweight Champion. And the KO was BJ Penn's corner pulling him out due to cumulative punishment.

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6 hours ago, Victator said:

A lot of WCW's best matches happened on the B and C shows where the announcers were not even discussing the people in the matches. The corporate culture or whatever nonsense does not have an effect on the matches.

I call total bullshit on all of this. If you could find even one match that would be considered one of WCW's best that fits the description in the first sentence, I'd be amazed. If you polled 100 fans on a WCW top 50 or whatever, the vast majority of matches are going to be from a PPV/A-show between wrestlers WCW put effort into getting over.

The second sentence is just pure insanity that is completely disproved through the entirety of wrestling history. Wrestling is performance art, presentation is everything. To pick an easy example, look at the nearly non-existent number of high-end matches from WCW in late 99/2000. No one can dispute there was talent on the roster, but the backstage turmoil and writing tanked the show.

6 hours ago, Victator said:

It also doesn't change the fact the same people over hyping the current generation, were over hyping the last generation. 

Who even was the last generation prior to the NXT era? AJ Lee, The Bellas, Alicia Fox, Nattie, and Eve Torres? I don't remember anyone hyping them. If you narrowed it to just Paige and Emma who probably weren't substantially more talented than the aforementioned group (but got hype because of their ~presentation~) but quickly got passed by 4HW, you'd have a point. I'm honestly not sure where the idea that WWE women's wrestling has been getting hyped for the last 15 years is coming from, though. I remember the tone being either "who cares" or "it'd be nice if WWE did more with the women" over the years, not "the women's division is actually really good guys."

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Remember when Bret Hart called Melina the best in the world?

“It’s hard to come up with anything new in wrestling, everything’s been done so many times before. You know, there’s innovators that just come out and create new stuff and Rey Mysterio is one of those and Melina’s one of those. I think they’re breaking new ground in wrestling all the time.”

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1 hour ago, JohnnyJ said:

Remember when Bret Hart called Melina the best in the world?

“It’s hard to come up with anything new in wrestling, everything’s been done so many times before. You know, there’s innovators that just come out and create new stuff and Rey Mysterio is one of those and Melina’s one of those. I think they’re breaking new ground in wrestling all the time.”

This is funny because Bob Holly basically says Melina is one of the worst ever in his book. I tend to side with Bob on this one. I did however meet Melina at a comic con type event. Morrison was 2 tables over and she acted like the biggest whore possible.  I wonder if Bret meant to say Morrison instead of Melina?

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Are there any wrestlers on the indies who look like absolute monsters (e.g. Brock Lesnar, Goldberg)? I've watched very little indie wrestling so I might be missing some very obvious names. Follow-up question: any entertaining ones, be it due to personality or good matches? I've always prefered the 'big guys beating the shit out of each other' matches, but that seems to be quite uncommon.

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