Beech27 Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 16 hours ago, Contentious C said: I couldn't have been happier that the movie itself had more inclusive roles. I love Laura Dern, her character, and that her sacrifice is still a gut punch is a testament to how awesome she was. Daisy Ridley is ten times the badass as Rey that Mark Hamill ever was. But it lost me when Fly-With-Me McGee floated her happy ass back onto the ship after, let's see here, 1) no explicit mention of EVER receiving Force training, 2) just being probably concussed by an enormous blast from a star cruiser, and 3) being sucked into the vacuum of space in an instant. 1) Things don't need to be explicitly mentioned, especially when they can be shown. "Show, don't tell" is reductive and I think too frequently given writing advice, but still... We've known she's force sensitive for decades; it's more reasonable than not to believe she's cultivated that somewhat; we're shown that she has. Fundamentally, that's way better than some maid-and-butler dialogue (droid-and-droid?) establishing it. 2, 3) Whether it's plausible and/or cool is another thing. People seem to vary wildly on the latter, and the former has never mattered much in Star Wars, or blockbusters in general. Maybe she should have died, but she didn't. Darth Maul survived getting cut in half and falling hundreds of feet. The Force has always been a pillow soft magic system, capable of whatever the author wants at a given time. That mystery is both its greatest appeal and weakness as a narrative device. Quote - Rey is really strong with the Force; is she secretly a Skywalker? None of it matters! Do whatever the Hell we want! (This is probably a positive, since the whole 'inherited blood magic' thing was always one of the poorest aspects of the series) It absolutely matters that she isn't a member of the Space Magic Nobility. As you say, it's always been a little... eh... and the Force as a semi-living thing, seeking out and propping up the poor and downtrodden, fits much better with the themes of rebellion. (Whether "downtrodden rebels vs Empire" is a thing they should have gone back to so quickly is another thing altogether, and I think a bigger problem--but that's a TFA problem.) Quote - Poe just spent 85% of the movie being more or less a traitor and accidentally getting people killed left and right through either sheer bravado, stupidity, or direct mutiny. Should we make him the new leader of this pile of ashes we call the Resistance? None of it matters! Do whatever the Hell we want! Having a Big Plot Problem that could be solved if only two characters would have a conversation is basically always frustrating, even if that conversation doesn't happen for sound reasons. To that end, I get that Poe's arc is less satisfying than it could be, but it all matters. He's learning that leadership is more than self aggrandizement and showboating, that it's sometimes slow and pragmatic and quiet, and pairing that with his earned fame and natural charisma makes him an easy guy to follow. Especially when there are like ten left. Formal leadership will come later, probably after a bit of a time skip, but we've now seen him take the first steps. Quote - Should Finn's attempt to steal the codes to the First order cruiser matter? Should his rivalry with Phasma matter? Should his attempt at a noble sacrifice for his friends mean anything? Guess what the answer is! Yes? Finn buys in, no longer out of proximity or convenience or a general desire not to massacre innocents. He is, pointedly, almost laughably explicitly, Rebel Scum now. Phasma is the same in her buy-in, but on the other side. She wants petty, painful revenge, and even as things burn and fall apart around her, she'd rather hurt him. His casino plan fails--that it does so partially because of bad parking is... not great--but people like nothing less than a passive protagonist, so he's out here, trying stuff, really seeing the outside galaxy for the first time. And it kinda sucks! People should fix it. But with that born-again passion comes naivete, and so he's willing to die for what would be an ineffectual gesture. (I don't really like Rose's line at all, though.) I hope I'm being fair, here. It's far from a perfect movie, especially the more granular we get; but in its broad strokes and aspirations, I don't think it's at all accurate to say nothing matters. I think, on the other hand, that it's very concerned with what matters, with saying things that matter itself; and so the broad strokes are often broad, the dialogue blunt about the lessons each characters (and audience member) are supposed to learn. And while I appreciate the "Stop Grading Star Wars on a Curve" piece, the series has always been a deeply unsubtle fairy tale. Whether that works for someone generally will vary endlessly, and certainly it can fail for myriad specific reasons without that person being a bigot--critics and viewers should absolutely note and discuss those shortcomings, where they perceive them. (Certainly I can point out a few.) But the bad faith actors have ruined things, as they're wont to do. All of this is to say... I totally agree that this isn't movie one needs to be on either side of. I mostly love it for what I think it's trying to do, even if more than a few specifics are always going to falter for me; thus I enjoy thinking and talking about it more than watching the whole thing; the throne room fight, after all, is pretty short, and usually that's all I need. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Control Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 Perhaps of interest: Film Crit Hulk, "The Beautiful, Ugly, and Possessive Hearts of Star Wars" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bustronaut Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 FilmCritHulk is never of interest Beech's response is *wonderful* but goes to show that some people really need things spoon-fed to them. Leia's twin brother is likely the most powerful Jedi ever, OF COURSE SHE CAN DO FORCE SHIT. Jesus C, her brother was teaching her son, do you honestly think he would be like "Gosh, you're a stinky girl, I can't teach you anything!" 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contentious C Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 Enjoy cinching in that triangle choke on that gender-based strawman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Control Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 I think you mean “gender-based strawperson.” 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVA Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 Even if Leia was never trained, THE FORCE AWAKENS proved that an untrained Force-sensitive person can do Jedi shit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beech27 Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 28 minutes ago, EVA said: Even if Leia was never trained, THE FORCE AWAKENS proved that an untrained Force-sensitive person can do Jedi shit. Funny thing about that: I'm not sure how much I like this rabbit hole, but the TFA tie-in novel* says that Rey accidentally "steals" some of Kylo's training and force skills when he tries to read her mind. Her blank-slate sensitivity combined with his unguarded passion makes it a dry sponge suddenly doused scenario. This at least partially explains why she's such a natural, and suggests that something similar could be possible where a willing connection exists, as with Luke and Leia. (Though I'd suggest that sort of mind-thievery is a bit dark side, and masters would prefer incremental, responsible training. But I'd also suggest that this is all hand-wavey and we have no idea.) *Of course, tie-in novels are always dubiously canon. It's not explicit in the movie, but it's... something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zimbra Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 My lowkey favorite thing about TLJ is that almost everything that happens in the second half of the movie is set in motion by Finn and Rose illegally parking their ship, which is such a Coen Brothers-ass plot point to have in a sci fi blockbuster. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Cincinnati Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 1 hour ago, Zimbra said: My lowkey favorite thing about TLJ is that almost everything that happens in the second half of the movie is set in motion by Finn and Rose illegally parking their ship, which is such a Coen Brothers-ass plot point to have in a sci fi blockbuster. And to think people called that subplot pointless! Ha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVileOne Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 The whole Resistance still gets obliterated because of Holdo, Finn, Rose, and Poe. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 14 hours ago, Beech27 said: Funny thing about that: I'm not sure how much I like this rabbit hole, but the TFA tie-in novel* says that Rey accidentally "steals" some of Kylo's training and force skills when he tries to read her mind. Her blank-slate sensitivity combined with his unguarded passion makes it a dry sponge suddenly doused scenario. This at least partially explains why she's such a natural, and suggests that something similar could be possible where a willing connection exists, as with Luke and Leia. (Though I'd suggest that sort of mind-thievery is a bit dark side, and masters would prefer incremental, responsible training. But I'd also suggest that this is all hand-wavey and we have no idea.) *Of course, tie-in novels are always dubiously canon. It's not explicit in the movie, but it's... something. I think EVA was talking about the stable kid doing a force pull on his broom. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurningBeard Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 TBF, Contentious C is the only person I've come across whose issues with TLJ make sense. But in saying that, TLJ isn't Twin Peaks and doesn't require lots of thought and analysis and theorising. It was an good popcorn film that was just really fucking long. Oh and I know someone posted the gif of Leia floating in space then zooming off and destroying the Star Destroyer as a joke but I really wish it had gone down like that. Also: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Cincinnati Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 As a Trekkie, (fuck that Trecker bullshit),it fills me with glee that Star Wars fans are the worst now. That poster is fantastic, as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Control Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 Lol, just noticed Snoke using an overhead projector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Cincinnati Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 Keri Russell is in talks to join Episode IX. I assume nobody will get too aggressive on social media. I'd be too scared of her and Matthew Rhys packing me into a fucking suitcase. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVileOne Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Everyone acting sanctimonious over the Star Wars bullying is getting annoying. Someone made a whole documentary about why George Lucas is a piece of shit for ruining Star Wars with the prequels. And there are entire segments in the film trashing on Jar Jar Binks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Cincinnati Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 They're dorks too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystman Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 On 7/10/2018 at 9:06 AM, The Natural said: Thank God this brave artist is out here carrying water for Disney. Poor guys. They sure need the support. And I'm saying this as someone who LIKED The Last Jedi. But I'm so tired of seeing people act as the PR department for billionaires at the expense of paying customers. Another thing, Kylo Ren's whole deal in TLJ was "Kill the past". So did this artist even see the facking movie? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 His deal was "kill the past so we can do the exact same thing all over again, just with us in charge this time." It was a generational shift, not a paradigm shift like Rey was looking for. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 Who the heck wants new episodes of Clone Wars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 12 hours ago, Matt D said: His deal was "kill the past so we can do the exact same thing all over again, just with us in charge this time." It was a generational shift, not a paradigm shift like Rey was looking for. I don't think Rey wanted change, she wanted Luke to return and bail them out and have it be like the old days. It was Luke who wants to destroy the Jedi, thinking it will fix things. Luke has a history of making poor choices in the original movies. Even in Return Of The Jedi, he would have been killed, if Vader had not turned. 19 hours ago, mystman said: Thank God this brave artist is out here carrying water for Disney. Poor guys. They sure need the support. And I'm saying this as someone who LIKED The Last Jedi. But I'm so tired of seeing people act as the PR department for billionaires at the expense of paying customers. Another thing, Kylo Ren's whole deal in TLJ was "Kill the past". So did this artist even see the facking movie? Thank you for saying this. People are so eager to prop up the evil empire. Maybe its part of being an authoritarian. Backing whoever has the most power. Nothing against @The Natural for posting it. Just a thought I had when I first saw it the other day. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eivion Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 3 hours ago, Matt D said: Who the heck wants new episodes of Clone Wars? My brother and myself. I hope they finish out the planned arcs. it sounded like there was enough for another season or two before Order 66 hits. After that I want the search for Ezra with Ahsoka & Sabine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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