2017 Non-Event General MMA Talk Thread

[Elsalvajeloco]

BTW UFC 205 is replaying on FS1 on Friday.

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

[Elsalvajeloco]

Jimi Manuwa vs. Corey Anderson is the main event for the UFC card in London.

Rashad Evans is rumored to be fighting Dan Kelly at UFC 209 so I guess Eric Spicely won't be getting that fight.

Tim Means and Alex Olivieira will be having their rematch on the Fight Night card in Fortaleza.

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

[Elsalvajeloco]

The UFC has added three fights to the Fortaleza card: Michel Prazeres vs. Josh Burkman, Jussier Formiga vs. Ray Borg, and Sergio Moraes vs. Max Griffin.

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

[TheVileOne]

I hope Miocic got his extra $200K.

[Elsalvajeloco]

3 hours ago, TheVileOne said:

I hope Miocic got his extra $200K.

Normally, it would be a joke but it's probably what did happen....Miocic maybe got whatever Bader was making in addition to what he was already getting.

 

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

[TheVileOne]

Let me just say I don't agree with in principal the idea of letting your No. 4 ranked light heavyweight go to Bellator.  And the main reason is that UFC's light heavyweight division is in crisis right now and has a dearth of talent.

I don't know how but Misha Kirkunov is not under contract either.  This division is an absolute mess.  

Now I have no idea what Bader was looking to get paid, but the obvious next fight for him was likely Gustafsson.  If Bader leaves, the division is an even bigger mess than what it was before.

[Elsalvajeloco]

12 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

Let me just say I don't agree with in principal the idea of letting your No. 4 ranked light heavyweight go to Bellator.  And the main reason is that UFC's light heavyweight division is in crisis right now and has a dearth of talent.

I don't know how but Misha Kirkunov is not under contract either.  This division is an absolute mess.  

Now I have no idea what Bader was looking to get paid, but the obvious next fight for him was likely Gustafsson.  If Bader leaves, the division is an even bigger mess than what it was before.

With the UFC, Bader was in a weird place where he had not beat any notable top LHWs but was himself a notable LHW. I don't know how much effort the UFC was going to put into Bader getting another streak of wins before losing to someone like Rumble again or maybe Cormier. Phil Davis is the Bellator LHW champion, and it's not like he is tearing up the world in terms of building the Bellator brand.  

[AxB]

I think the UFC figures that Bellator isn't actually competition to them, so anyone who wants to go to Bellator is free to leave. In the unlikely event of someone becoming a huge star outside of the big company, they can always get them back, right?

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 hour ago, AxB said:

I think the UFC figures that Bellator isn't actually competition to them, so anyone who wants to go to Bellator is free to leave. In the unlikely event of someone becoming a huge star outside of the big company, they can always get them back, right?

They see them as competition but the overall utility of certain fighters is about to be tested. If you're a guy on the fringes who never won a big fight or isn't a fan favorite (as reflected in the ratings), then what purpose do you serve to an organization strictly about making money?

[AxB]

Well, yeah. It seems the first rule of professional Wrestling (always do something to differentiate yourself) applies in real fighting too.

[TheVileOne]

4 hours ago, AxB said:

I think the UFC figures that Bellator isn't actually competition to them, so anyone who wants to go to Bellator is free to leave. In the unlikely event of someone becoming a huge star outside of the big company, they can always get them back, right?

I can see that.  I can even see letting Phil Davis go at the time.  His fights just weren't exciting at all, and it seemed like he hit a ceiling.  Not to mention, he always looked like he had no idea what to do when he had to strike and never had a good transitional game.  But Bader's at least doing reasonably well at the moment and has generally served as a high-level gatekeeper to champs and contenders.  

And the chances of Bader becoming a huge star and draw in Bellator are low.  But I'm speaking more on the overall health of the light heavyweight division, which is in a troubling state right now with Jon Jones constantly getting in trouble and taking long layoffs, an injury prone champ in Daniel Cormier.  Even Gustafsson was almost ready to retire after Johnson put him to sleep.  

Best case scenario, Jones comes back and maybe he retakes the title.  But there's no guarantee he doesn't massively screw up again since he's made a habit of it for the last several years.  

If you want a healthy division, you need the meat and potato dudes like Bader to fill it out.  Even if it means granting him a title shot at some point, so be it.  Also, yet again, no idea why they would let Kirkunov go like that.  So if you look at the UFC light heavyweight rankings right now, outside of the top three dudes, it's an absolute joke of a division.  You have OSP at No. 6 and Shogun at No. 7.  Krylov at No. 9 despite just getting knocked out.

[Elsalvajeloco]

18 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

I can see that.  I can even see letting Phil Davis go at the time.  His fights just weren't exciting at all, and it seemed like he hit a ceiling.  Not to mention, he always looked like he had no idea what to do when he had to strike and never had a good transitional game.  But Bader's at least doing reasonably well at the moment and has generally served as a high-level gatekeeper to champs and contenders.  

And the chances of Bader becoming a huge star and draw in Bellator are low.  But I'm speaking more on the overall health of the light heavyweight division, which is in a troubling state right now with Jon Jones constantly getting in trouble and taking long layoffs, an injury prone champ in Daniel Cormier.  Even Gustafsson was almost ready to retire after Johnson put him to sleep.  

Best case scenario, Jones comes back and maybe he retakes the title.  But there's no guarantee he doesn't massively screw up again since he's made a habit of it for the last several years.  

If you want a healthy division, you need the meat and potato dudes like Bader to fill it out.  Even if it means granting him a title shot at some point, so be it.  Also, yet again, no idea why they would let Kirkunov go like that.  So if you look at the UFC light heavyweight rankings right now, outside of the top three dudes, it's an absolute joke of a division.  You have OSP at No. 6 and Shogun at No. 7.  Krylov at No. 9 despite just getting knocked out.

Meat and potatoes doesn't mean shit though at 205. You know why Bader isn't one of those guys? Because in any division with depth...you wouldn't have to pay those guys.

Honestly, at this point, whoever the LHW champ is vs. those other guys under contract is going to do the same business as the champ vs. Ryan Bader.

If it comes down to paying a fringe contender or dumping a contract, the UFC is going to a do the latter unless they feel realistically that said fighter is worth the money. It's not that hard to understand.

FWIW, Cirkunov wants to stay with the UFC. He just happens to be a free agent.

 

[TheVileOne]

Light heavyweight has a severe lack of depth and young prospects, which is why it's worth keeping someone like Bader.  

Realistically, how expensive would it actually be to keep Cirkunov on the roster after beating Krylov?  He seems to have a lot of upside right now.  

[Elsalvajeloco]

10 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

Light heavyweight has a severe lack of depth and young prospects, which is why it's worth keeping someone like Bader.  

Not really. They can move on from Ryan Bader. They managed to do that with Jon Jones for several months at the time. If they can do that with possibly the best fighter ever, they can do it with someone who hasn't contributed one single win to legitimize himself as an elite LHW.

Also, it makes no sense to keep harping on Cirkunov. No one signs for an infinite number of fights on a deal. If someone chooses to not sign an extension on the last fight of their deal, I don't think it's the end of the world. The dude just fought in early December. Give it some time.

 

 

[TheVileOne]

4 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Not really. They can move on from Ryan Bader. They managed to do that with Jon Jones for several months at the time. If they can do that with possibly the best fighter ever, they can do it with someone who hasn't contributed one single win to legitimize himself as an elite LHW.

Also, it makes no sense to keep harping on Cirkunov. No one signs for an infinite number of fights on a deal. If someone chooses to not sign an extension on the last fight of their deal, I don't think it's the end of the world. The dude just fought in early December. Give it some time.

He's ranked No. 4 in the division and beaten two former UFC champions.  How is that not legitimizing himself?  

[Elsalvajeloco]

Just now, TheVileOne said:

He's ranked No. 4 in the division and beaten two former UFC champions.  How is that not legitimizing himself?  

Does he have a win over Jon Jones? Does he have a win over Daniel Cormier? Does he have a win over Glover Teixeira? Does he have a win over Anthony Johnson? No? Well...how about Alexander Gustafsson? Well, shit. He hasn't beaten anyone who has fought in a legitimate LHW title fight in the last 3 or 4 years.

[twiztor]

if it does happen, i'll be sorry to see Bader go. Was looking forward to a matchup with Gustafsson, and always hoped he would get a title shot (preferably against DC). I think there's still plenty of reason to keep him in the UFC, but i can see the other side of the coin also. 

i don't see Bellator offering any big matchups for him. A title shot is obviously something Bader has never gotten, so that makes sense. Phil Davis is enough of a name that it could do OK. Bader-Mo is fine too, but after that i just don't see what's ahead.

[Elsalvajeloco]

Just now, twiztor said:

if it does happen, i'll be sorry to see Bader go. Was looking forward to a matchup with Gustafsson, and always hoped he would get a title shot (preferably against DC). I think there's still plenty of reason to keep him in the UFC, but i can see the other side of the coin also. 

i don't see Bellator offering any big matchups for him. A title shot is obviously something Bader has never gotten, so that makes sense. Phil Davis is enough of a name that it could do OK. Bader-Mo is fine too, but after that i just don't see what's ahead.

There is Chael, McGeary, Vassell, and some of the other random LHWs they have. Plus, he can move up to HW and beat some of those guys occupying that wasteland. He can't beat up a Rampage Jackson who is in somehow worse shape now than he was when Bader beat him on that Japan card? Sergei Kharitonov in his current state can't catch an L against Ryan Bader? Satoshi Ishii is still around.

[supremebve]

You know the real problem with Ryan Bader, he's too good for his role.  The top guys in that division will smash him, but anyone else is going to get a demoralizing beat down that they may never recover from.  Bader is in a position where he's the guy you have to beat to get into title contention, but his style is to take his opponent down and beat on them until they break.  If you are looking to build a division, you don't want to have a gatekeeper who breaks all of the up and coming fighters.  It wouldn't matter if he was a title contender, but he isn't.  He's just a dude who destroys everyone even slightly worse than him.  

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 hour ago, supremebve said:

You know the real problem with Ryan Bader, he's too good for his role.  The top guys in that division will smash him, but anyone else is going to get a demoralizing beat down that they may never recover from.  Bader is in a position where he's the guy you have to beat to get into title contention, but his style is to take his opponent down and beat on them until they break.  If you are looking to build a division, you don't want to have a gatekeeper who breaks all of the up and coming fighters.  It wouldn't matter if he was a title contender, but he isn't.  He's just a dude who destroys everyone even slightly worse than him.  

Exactly. My point isn't that he's a bad fighter. He's a very capable fighter as I believe he can beat pretty much 95% of the current Bellator roster above middleweight. However, if someone's argument is that the UFC doesn't have enough fringe contenders at 205, then I dunno how to explain it in simpler terms. It's not like Bader has been in the UFC for a little while. He has been there for a hot minute. He has some decent wins (especially compared to other fringe LHWs) and has improved a lot since his TUF days, but he is winless against anyone who was very good at the time he fought them. Based on his performance against Rumble last January, the trend is not going to reverse itself. So if he wants to make what he feels like is good money elsewhere, let him make good money elsewhere. People were crying and complaining about how the UFC let dudes like Fitch, Shields, and Okami. The thing is...what makes you believe that the UFC couldn't find adequate or comparative talent to those guys? I am not saying I believed the narrative that all those dudes were on a career downswing, but people have to understand that roles can be filled pretty easily based on the current MMA talent pool. Yushin Okami was like one of my favorite fighters eight or nine years ago, but it ain't hard to find someone on Okami's level in his prime or better. It's just not. I know people get attached to people who they're familiar with, but time moves on.

The UFC can find or have fighters ready to fill the gatekeeper role. You don't think Glover Teixeira or Shogun Rua ain't ready to keep ALL the gates? If a prospect or rising fighter is legit, he will beat those guys. If he isn't, he will lose to those guys. Actually, that's kinda the upside of having a thin division. How many dudes are REALLY going to prepare you for fighting DC, Rumble, or Jon Jones? So if there isn't any one perfect fighter like that at 205 (if he was, he would be in the immediate title picture or already fought for the belt), then what purpose does Bader serve that someone like Gian Villante or Pat Cummins couldn't serve? With the way someone like Corey Anderson dominates certain fighters, if he doesn't turn the corner like someone that athletically gifted should be able to do, he can slide into that Ryan Bader role easily. There isn't anyone at LHW fighting 4-5 times a year so you're going to have enough fighters to occupy their positions they need to occupy.