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2017 Non-Event General MMA Talk Thread


Elsalvajeloco

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1 hour ago, username said:

Mike Brown was about as long in the tooth when he fought Aldo as he was when WEC closed, he was getting whacked by Manvel only six months later.  Also if we are being honest he benefited mightily in the second Faber fight as Faber managed to break all of his hands during it.  The first fight was clearly his though.

Brown was good during the time right before the talent level raised dramatically (his non-Faber/Aldo WEC title defense was against Leonard Garcia to give one an idea of what a title contender looked like then), and when it did rise he was basically going 50-50 with the equivalent of UFC journeymen.  I will allow that age was also a contributing factor.

I actually like Mike Brown FWIW, but he's basically the same kind of earlier-era good fighter that Fedor faced and bested and is not getting credit for. 

Yeah, that's absolutely wrong because MMA in the lower weights had been around for several years at that point when WEC was around. If we're talking about Pequeno Nogueira or Shaolin Ribeiro, then it would be quite different because those guys were going to be used as gatekeepers once it was apparent they were done. Brown had been a good fighter fighting in the Northeast and on the Josh Harnett shows in Florida for years, but didn't have a platform to compete on the highest level. When he did put together a pretty good run and beat one of the P4P best fighters below 155. The talent being raised didn't start with UFC getting those guys, it started around 2003/2004 when more and more of those guys started fighting each other in Shooto, Deep, and other regional promotions. So by the time Zuffa bought WEC, you actually had a greater group of those fighters doing it stateside. Comparing him to Fedor fighting a Gary Goodridge is asinine because he's not fucking Rumina Sato or Naoya Uematsu. Those guys are the throwbacks that you would say these were the first generation fighters in the lower weight classes. Hell, there was likely a couple generations between that because you got like the Dokonjonosuke Mishimas and Hiroyuki Abes who had already been around for like half a decade and then fought on the first Bushido shows. Some of those dudes fought and got absolutely wiped by the next generation of guys and then many of those dudes would be phased out by the time you reached the mid 2000s. Yeah, so comparing that to someone fighting in a division where you can fight dudes who were relevant in 1996 and it be feasible is a little crazy. A lot of those early fighters were highly skilled which is why many of those fights back then were highly sought as far tape trading and talked about even though the money divisions were 200 pounds and up for several years. All the good fighters didn't magically appear seven years ago. The reason why you have folks like Max Holloway is the talent level was consistently high for years. Yeah, you got some brawlers and some club fighters but that's what happens when you try to expand and search for talent.

 

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2 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

 

That’s 3 fights now rumored/announced for the Orlando card?

That fight, Marcin Prachnio vs. Jake Collier and Jessica Andrade vs. Karolina Kowalkiewicz. Any others I’m missing?

I met Ben Saunders the other day and I asked him if he had any fights scheduled and he said he was working on that with the UFC now, so don’t be surprised if he’s on this card.

Edit: Forgot to mention, Seth Petruzelli is doing pro-wrestling now. Saw him last Thursday at an MLW event. He’s not as polished/doesn’t have as much/little experience as Tom Lawlor or Matt Riddle yet. Also Lawlor and Riddle were on the card. Riddle has been around for a little longer and Lawlor has been adapting quickly.

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6 minutes ago, Edwin said:

That’s 3 fights now rumored/announced for the Orlando card?

That fight, Marcin Prachnio vs. Jake Collier and Jessica Andrade vs. Karolina Kowalkiewicz.

Is there any American Combat Club fighters on the UFC roster? I’m guessing they’ll get some fighters from there, ATT Orlando and from the Jungle.

This is a perfect time for them to get Mo DeResse. 5-0 prospect. I believe he was on a season of TUF.

I hope Mitchell Chamale. He’s promoting events now.

Saw him live (along with Mo and Mike Perry) at a local event a couple of years ago and I thought he had potential, but he hasn’t fought since then and seems to be focused on promoting events in central Florida now.

I met Ben Saunders the other day (thank to my buddy Stefane) and I asked him if he had any fights scheduled and he said he was working on that with the UFC now, so don’t be surprised if he’s on this card.

I'm guessing they're probably going to get someone like a Niko Price or any random roster fighter from central Florida they have to fill that void. The Werdum vs. Browne card didn't feature any regional fighters other the main ATT fighters and the Dos Anjos/Cerrone 2 card had Jim Alers as the only fighter based out of Orlando. Like always, it's going to depend on the availability of space on the card.

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2 hours ago, Edwin said:

Stephens vs. Choi is going to be wild.

FWIW that's the Sunday card after the NFL Divisional playoff games that was in Phoenix last year (Rodriguez vs. Penn) and previously in Boston (McGregor vs. Siver & Dillashaw vs. Cruz).

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22 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Yeah, that's absolutely wrong because MMA in the lower weights had been around for several years at that point when WEC was around. 

I am aware that the lower weight classes didn't just appear overnight... but perhaps I am being too harsh towards the level fighter Mike Brown was at one point.  Fair enough.

That said, if Brown's issue is that he got old then it sorta looks like Aldo beat an old Mike Brown.  You can pull up Brown's post-Aldo opponents and results, it is not impressive and there is no gradual drop-off after the Aldo fight (and it's not like Aldo put a career altering, Cain-on-JDS-esque beating on him).  Over the next fifteen months he goes 2-3 and it wasn't like he was losing to worldbeaters (and the two wins aren't impressive in the least).  I just don't see any way to argue this as a career-defining victory for Aldo that is worth much in terms of "this victory shows why he is the GOAT".  Perhaps through no fault of his own he fought Brown a bit too late and Cub a bit too early for it to mean as much as it could have.

 

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14 hours ago, username said:

I am aware that the lower weight classes didn't just appear overnight... but perhaps I am being too harsh towards the level fighter Mike Brown was at one point.  Fair enough.

That said, if Brown's issue is that he got old then it sorta looks like Aldo beat an old Mike Brown.  You can pull up Brown's post-Aldo opponents and results, it is not impressive and there is no gradual drop-off after the Aldo fight (and it's not like Aldo put a career altering, Cain-on-JDS-esque beating on him).  Over the next fifteen months he goes 2-3 and it wasn't like he was losing to worldbeaters (and the two wins aren't impressive in the least).  I just don't see any way to argue this as a career-defining victory for Aldo that is worth much in terms of "this victory shows why he is the GOAT".  Perhaps through no fault of his own he fought Brown a bit too late and Cub a bit too early for it to mean as much as it could have.

 

This is something I brought to sprewellrimz when after that fight happened, but he countered with something I necessarily couldn't disagree with in that Aldo was naturally a bad style matchup for MTB. Brown was a good ground fighter, but he was fighting someone who was a legit Nova Uniao black belt and had already clearly proven himself as a better standup fighter. Maybe it was a Ricky Hatton vs. Kostya Tszyu thing where the champ is clearly past his prime and facing a hot rising star. However, I mean when was Aldo ever going to face MTB when he was going to get full credit other than when he actually faced him?

On the Swanson thing, I would compared it to Groves vs. DeGale (even though DeGale lost his title to basically a journeyman last week) where it's two top prospects fighting each other. Maybe you can say McGregor vs. Holloway at the first FS1 show ever. If they didn't eventually go on to win a world title, it was a clear they would be world class contenders. I would perhaps take away a little from Aldo moreso for fighting someone too early than too late because it's almost like you have to prove you can beat someone again when they get really good. However, the method he did it by wasn't like this fluke decision where you would want to see it again immediately. If Swanson doesn't lose that quickly and that emphatically, he doesn't make the necessary changes to his career like going to Jackson/Wink or improving his boxing under Joel Diaz.  

So I would classify those wins as very good wins, but yeah, I wouldn't actually define those as ones that make Aldo a HOFer. However, you should certainly include those in his body of work way over wins like Chris Mickle and Rolando Perez and a couple tiers above a Jonathan Brookins who was a decent fighter but never really put it together.

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14 hours ago, username said:

if Brown's issue is that he got old then it sorta looks like Aldo beat an old Mike Brown.  You can pull up Brown's post-Aldo opponents and results, it is not impressive and there is no gradual drop-off after the Aldo fight (and it's not like Aldo put a career altering, Cain-on-JDS-esque beating on him).  Over the next fifteen months he goes 2-3 and it wasn't like he was losing to worldbeaters (and the two wins aren't impressive in the least).  I just don't see any way to argue this as a career-defining victory for Aldo that is worth much in terms of "this victory shows why he is the GOAT".  Perhaps through no fault of his own he fought Brown a bit too late and Cub a bit too early for it to mean as much as it could have.

 

i also enjoy Mike Brown as a fighter. But the story on him is that if you take the Faber fights out of the equation, he hasn't really ever beaten any top-tier guys. Yves Edwards is probably the next best guy he beat, and Edwards was always pretty mid range.

I don't see that as a knock on Aldo. At the time, Brown looked damn good, beating Faber twice and defending the title against Leonard Garcia (lol). Brown was the favorite to win that fight, although the odds were fairly close IIRC. A solid win that should be counted as kicking off his 5 year run with the title.

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1 hour ago, twiztor said:

i also enjoy Mike Brown as a fighter. But the story on him is that if you take the Faber fights out of the equation, he hasn't really ever beaten any top-tier guys. 

But who were the top tier fighters at that time? Because most of the fighters would turn into top fighters were just prospects (Assuncao was a bit borderline). I mean he couldn't beat Jens Pulver or Wagnney Fabiano?

One of the problems of discussing P4P/greatest of all time is missing the context behind those wins and losses and the matchmaking therein. Featherweight at the time was as fragmented as middleweight outside and inside the UFC from 2003-11 and fragmented as female flyweight is now with the halfway decent of good fighters being spread all around. Saying if you take away this guy from his record is pretty bizarre because you have to account for those wins because they happened. This goes especially since WEC had to be largely responsible for the matchmaking of the best available talent. That's a large burden for what was essentially a high level feeder organization. The whole reason why you would get a Leonard Garcia challenging for a belt and moreover a largely anonymous fighter outside the hardcore fans like Mike Brown becoming the #1 featherweight in the world at one point. You have a good mix of gatekeepers, also-rans, straight cannon fodder, potential prospects, actual legit high end prospects, and world class fighters. Brown vs. Garcia is basically what WEC was suppose to be. You have a fighter you want to make more popular and you put him in against someone who has a name who he should impressively beat. That's matchmaking 101 (boxing has been making this work for going on more than a century). You can't view a WEC in the same light as a UFC because they dont share the same responsibilities other than to get their fighters over. End of story.

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From reports I've seen today, it appears former longtime Xtreme Couture head trainer Robert Follis has passed away. Scant details are available, but unfortunately, the unconfirmed rumor is an apparent suicide. Extremely sad news. RIP.

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So Chase Sherman tweeted a vid of a spot from an ROH match from last night between the Young Bucks and Flip Gordon and someone else mocking them and DC expressed he didn't like it and all hell broke lose with Jim Cornette going off, Colby got in too mocking Sherman, etc.

The highlight of that entire thing was a fan telling DC to watch out because Cody could kick his ass because he was a collegiate wrestler or something and DC was nothing by an alley brawler...

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43 minutes ago, Edwin said:

So Chase Sherman tweeted a vid of a spot from an ROH match from last night between the Young Bucks and Flip Gordon and someone else mocking them and DC expressed he didn't like it and all hell broke lose with Jim Cornette going off, Colby got in too mocking Sherman, etc.

The highlight of that entire thing was a fan telling DC to watch out because Cody could kick his ass because he was a collegiate wrestler or something and DC was nothing by an alley brawler...

Yeah, I thought about posting that today but I usually don't like the whole wrestling vs. MMA thing simply because very little positive can come from it. I think in general anytime you talk about any fanbase, you're going to get some awful people. I don't want to see MMA and wrestling fans have a chest thumping contest. Also, I follow Meltzer on Twitter so I've endured more than enough already.

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If I'm not mistaken, the World MMA Awards is usually around this time. If Colby Covington shows up, I can easily see like this mid 90s Source Awards melee happening on the strength of Colby not knowing when to turn it off.

I remember Greg Savage kinda killing kayfabe on Sherdog radio one time when Chael was beginning his schtick. Apparently, Chael was talking mad shit about Brock Lesnar at a post fight presser or in a scrum. Then, Greg Savage ran into Chael afterwards and Chael asked Greg if he saw Brock backstage because he wanted to go in the exact opposite direction of where Brock was.

I'm not sure if Colby has the same wherewithal under pressure.

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I don't know why I find it so weird that the best heel going in 2017 is Colby Covington, but it's kind of fun. I know RDA shouldn't and won't take the fight with him while is Woodley on the shelf, but I would pop hard watching Dos Anjos turn Colby's calves into hamburger. 

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8 minutes ago, Oyaji said:

I don't know why I find it so weird that the best heel going in 2017 is Colby Covington, but it's kind of fun. I know RDA shouldn't and won't take the fight with him while is Woodley on the shelf, but I would pop hard watching Dos Anjos turn Colby's calves into hamburger. 

At this point, I don't know Covington's standing with the UFC. I mean I heard a rumor of Tyron and Colby possibly doing TUF, but I'm not sure if that's true. You would think with the UFC doing a show in Fresno a little over a week ago and Covington being from Clovis which is about 15 minutes away that he would at least be doing like a Q&A or a meet-and-greet. I know there was no ceremonial weigh ins for that show, but at least have him doing something to keep his face out there. As far I can tell, he wasn't even at the show.

When Chael caught fire, they had him do that shit all the time. Matter of fact, most of the pre hype footage for UFC 117 was Chael talking shit at the UFC 115 Q&A. I also remember them doing the same with Conor. It seems like they're trying to keep this under control as much as possible. However, I don't know if it's for UFC's PR and not wanting to deal with that burden or for Covington's safety. They just jettisoned Angela Magana. I don't think they want to empower the male counterpart.

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Maybe because he's outright xenophobic or at least more so than either Conor or Chael were and don't want to be seen as promoting that behaviour (though they absolutely have used that kind of stuff before to sell PPVs/gain viewers)? That's interesting though that they're not putting him in the spotlight.

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Wasn't there talk that Colby told Machida or Maia in the back that he just said that stuff in the post fight interview to build himself up and that it wasn't personal?

Also wasn't there talk about Colby being afraid for his safety in Brazil after the fight?

If so, then yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if Colby toned it down in person or tried avoiding seeing certain fighters.

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4 minutes ago, Edwin said:

Wasn't there talk that Colby told Machida or Maia in the back that he just said that stuff in the post fight interview to build himself up and that it wasn't personal?

Also wasn't there talk about Colby being afraid for his safety in Brazil after the fight?

If so, then yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if Colby toned it down in person or tried avoiding seeing certain fighters.

It was Maia because I remember Meltzer (or maybe Alvarez's annoying ass) being mad at Maia for not protecting kayfabe. I mean it's not like pro wrestling hasn't been hot or at least popular in Brazil since the 50s or 60s when Demian Maia wasn't alive yet. That's crazy he doesn't understand something he probably hasn't seen a second of!

This is why I'm not a big fan of the fanbases intersecting. You get stuff like that. It's not that serious.

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Angela Magana finally got released I bet the UFC Brass (Mostly the UFC staff *cough* TUF Staff) is having a party because of it. I bet she will probably at least get a fight in Bellator in 2018 since she can talk her way into hyping up a fight. 

 

If Colby wants to add another level to people Hating him on Twitter talk up Impact Wrestling and that will get even more wrestling fans made at him. 

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