2017 Non-Event General MMA Talk Thread

[Elsalvajeloco]

This be the end of Nova Uniao...at least as the last of the Brazilian MMA superteams. Jair Lourenco was very integral to NU and their success over the last several years. It seems like Dede is trying to run NU more like a business than a MMA gym and team, which I can't fault him since most MMA gyms are money pits and probably survive on sponsorships. My issue is that it probably cost him relationships (this would explain the rumors about the disagreement he had with Claudia) and I don't see that positively affecting a team that still has a handful of relevant fighters. I remember Chute Boxe (sans Rafael Cordeiro) tried to survive off the Cyborgs, Thiago Silva (who was with Macaco in Sao Paulo and wasn't even really training in Curitiba), and some folks who weren't really going to accomplish much in the grand scheme of things. Rudimar Fedrigo basically ran it into the ground and from there, couldn't keep the remaining notable folks at Chute Boxe. If that happens to Nova Uniao, then what is Nova Uniao other than the name? I mean I don't expect trainers and fighters to turn down opportunities to go elsewhere, especially if their careers and futures depend on taking those opportunities. The most intriguing consequence we could see soon from this is whether or not a Jose Aldo decides to stick with Dede to prove his loyalty or take off should he lose again to Max Holloway. I don't see Aldo uprooting his family at this point in his career, but I wouldn't be surprised if Aldo ended up with Jair Lourenco at the newish iteration of Power MMA either.

[Jiji]

I think UFC 218 may be the most I've been excited for a UFC show this year. Loaded with potentially great fights, none more exciting than Gaethje/Alvarez. Oliveira/Felder is not far behind. I'm thinking Ngannou continues his momentum and beats Reem. God damn, what a card. I know that 217 was proclaimed event of the year already but this could give it a serious challenge if things go as they should.

We also get Aljo/Moraes, Perry/Ponzinibbio, Lawler/RDA, Khabib/Barboza,  and Lineker/Rivera next month too, though there are more appealing fights than just those. I appreciate UFC's strong Decembers recently. 

[Hail Sabin]

If I sell my Colts at Jags ticket before Saturday Night I might use some of that money for this PPV. 

[The Natural]

Had a quick think about the End of Year MMA Awards here. I know Card of the Year is definitely UFC 217 and my Submission of the Year is Demetrious Johnson's suplex turned into a mid air armbar on Ray Borg at UFC 215.

[ChesterCopperpot]

Guess who?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/wellknown-irish-celebrity-punches-cartel-associate-in-dublin-pub-36359501.html 

 

[Elsalvajeloco]

On 11/21/2017 at 1:14 PM, Elsalvajeloco said:

PVZ's return fight will be against the recently victorious Jessica-Rose Clark on the Fight Night card in St. Louis.

After some confusion, this bout is now official a week later.

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

[OSJ]

On 11/28/2017 at 6:24 AM, ChesterCopperpot said:

Guess who?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/wellknown-irish-celebrity-punches-cartel-associate-in-dublin-pub-36359501.html 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

C'mon, he's Irish, punching other people in pubs is what we do. ;-)

[OSJ]

On 11/28/2017 at 6:24 AM, ChesterCopperpot said:

Guess who?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/wellknown-irish-celebrity-punches-cartel-associate-in-dublin-pub-36359501.html 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

Perhaps this didn't draw more comment because most folk here don't realize the implications. Conor needs to get the fuck out of Eire now! (And not go back!) These guys are hard bastards who take offense easily and have long memories. Being Irish and spending a good part of my life in pubs, (where else are you going to play darts in Seattle?) I made the acquaintance of some lads from the old country who for one reason or another couldn't go back. Were they Irish Mafia? I don't know, their knowledge of firearms seemed a little disconcerting for guys that were supposedly in the "building trades". I know when it's best not too ask too many questions. 

Anyway, if the guy Conor punched is closely connected, kneecapping is just the start... These guys use pliers and tinsnips to take fingers and toes off one at a time.

[Casey]

Shane Carwin announced he’s retiring (again) on Reddit’s MMA forum. Apparently RIZIN is a bad place to work at, according to him, and Bellator wouldn’t let him be an alternate for their Heavyweight tournament unless he qualified, which he balked at.

[Elsalvajeloco]

23 minutes ago, Casey said:

Shane Carwin announced he’s retiring (again) on Reddit’s MMA forum. Apparently RIZIN is a bad place to work at, according to him, and Bellator wouldn’t let him be an alternate for their Heavyweight tournament unless he qualified, which he balked at.

Doing a little research, it seems like Carwin took the Rizin GP spot last year in the middle of a custody battle and just didn't train before pulling out of the fight (which he may or may not have signed a bout agreement for). Then he offered to fight at a later event and Rizin threatened take legal action for whatever reason.

Jerry Millen brokered all of this so no surprise it all fell apart.

 

[Guest Edwin]

Yeah, Carwin was announced as a participant for the RIZIP OW GP last year, but pulled out for an unknown reason.

I am not surprised they threatened with legal action. They had some issues with Jerome Le Banner too. He was scheduled to fight Baruto on one of their shows, but he no showed RIZIN and appeared in IGF for Inoki.

Baruto ended up facing Peter Aerts as his replacement and RIZIN and Le Banner got into some type of legal battle that ended and Le Banner fought in RIZIN a couple of months ago.

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

[twiztor]

19 hours ago, Casey said:

Shane Carwin announced he’s retiring (again) on Reddit’s MMA forum. Apparently RIZIN is a bad place to work at, according to him, and Bellator wouldn’t let him be an alternate for their Heavyweight tournament unless he qualified, which he balked at.

LOL at Carwin refusing to qualify for a tournament. Dude hasn't had a fight in like 6 years, lost his last two, and pulled out of the last tourney he was announced as being part of.

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

[AxB]

See if you created a time capsule with the 2017 MMA rules (especially considering MMA wardrobe and gloves and so on) and sent in back in time to 1993, how different would the early UFC's have been? How many times would Royce have lost?

Other than the weight class thing, obviously.

[Elsalvajeloco]

6 minutes ago, AxB said:

See if you created a time capsule with the 2017 MMA rules (especially considering MMA wardrobe and gloves and so on) and sent in back in time to 1993, how different would the early UFC's have been? How many times would Royce have lost?

Other than the weight class thing, obviously.

Royce might have never fought if there were that many caveats. Rorion probably tries to create another promotion to compete against the UFC with no rules, no time limits, etc. 

[supremebve]

2 minutes ago, AxB said:

See if you created a time capsule with the 2017 MMA rules (especially considering MMA wardrobe and gloves and so on) and sent in back in time to 1993, how different would the early UFC's have been? How many times would Royce have lost?

Other than the weight class thing, obviously.

The guys who actually knew a specific fighting discipline would have done better, but most of the really early fights would have gone about the same.  I think UFC 1 goes exactly the same except Royce would have had to do a different submission than a gi choke.  The thing about the very early UFC events was that Royce was pretty much the only person who knew how to grapple above a blue belt level.  If Royce got any of those guys on the ground he pretty much submits all of them.  Out of all the fights in the first five  UFC events only 7 would have made it out of the first round in the current UFC.  They guys who knew what they were doing were able to finish their opponents pretty quickly.  I honestly don't know if the rules would have changed much.  

[AxB]

Gerard Gordeau wouldn't have gone into the final of UFC 1 with a broken hand and someone else's tooth embedded in his foot. So he'd have had more of a chance, anyway.

Severn would totally have beaten Royce on points, too.

[supremebve]

47 minutes ago, AxB said:

Gerard Gordeau wouldn't have gone into the final of UFC 1 with a broken hand and someone else's tooth embedded in his foot. So he'd have had more of a chance, anyway.

Severn would totally have beaten Royce on points, too.

Yeah, Royce would have to work much faster on the ground under current rules.  Him just laying around not doing much won't win him any decisions.

[supremebve]

The thing about early MMA and current MMA that sets the sport apart is not the rules, it is the seemingly simple shit that no one even though of yet.  Royce won all of those fights, because no one knew how to grapple.  Mark Coleman won, because no one knew how to defend a takedown.  Maurice Smith won because no one realized that they couldn't fight without legs.  Chuck Liddell won, because no one had developed head movement.  The crazy thing is the sport is so young that we continue to see crazy jumps in skill that set current fighters apart from fighters who were dominant just a couple years ago.  Max Holloway just destroyed Jose Aldo, who is one of the most skilled fighters of all time, twice.  He totally outclassed him.  Aldo is still a great striker, a good grappler, and perhaps has the greatest takedown defense ever, but it didn't matter.  Max Holloway is 25, has mastered his game, and it is a whole different level of fighter than Aldo.  Aldo's entire game was based on him having great head movement and footwork and being able to counter whatever you throw at him.  Holloway's game is pressuring, letting you counter, so he can counter your counters.  He is like a great pitcher he throws a lot of "off speed" punches, which lulls his opponent into a false sense of security.  It is like as soon as Aldo thought he had his timing  and started swinging away, Holloway put him away with the high heat.  The last time I can remember feeling like this about a fighter is Matt Hughes after the 2nd GSP fight.  Matt Hughes was the best Welterweight in the world, and one of the best pound for pound fighters in the world for what seemed like forever, until one day he wasn't.  

[Elsalvajeloco]

Just now, supremebve said:

The thing about early MMA and current MMA that sets the sport apart is not the rules, it is the seemingly simple shit that no one even though of yet.  Royce won all of those fights, because no one knew how to grapple.  Mark Coleman won, because no one knew how to defend a takedown.  Maurice Smith won because no one realized that they couldn't fight without legs.  Chuck Liddell won, because no one had developed head movement.  The crazy thing is the sport is so young that we continue to see crazy jumps in skill that set current fighters apart from fighters who were dominant just a couple years ago.  Max Holloway just destroyed Jose Aldo, who is one of the most skilled fighters of all time, twice.  He totally outclassed him.  Aldo is still a great striker, a good grappler, and perhaps has the greatest takedown defense ever, but it didn't matter.  Max Holloway is 25, has mastered his game, and it is a whole different level of fighter than Aldo.  Aldo's entire game was based on him having great head movement and footwork and being able to counter whatever you throw at him.  Holloway's game is pressuring, letting you counter, so he can counter your counters.  He is like a great pitcher he throws a lot of "off speed" punches, which lulls his opponent into a false sense of security.  It is like as soon as Aldo thought he had his timing  and started swinging away, Holloway put him away with the high heat.  The last time I can remember feeling like this about a fighter is Matt Hughes after the 2nd GSP fight.  Matt Hughes was the best Welterweight in the world, and one of the best pound for pound fighters in the world for what seemed like forever, until one day he wasn't.  

You telling me Renato Sobral, whose chief's striking coach at the time of the second fight with Chuck was a BJJ guy, running straight at and backing up in straight lines against Chuck Liddell wasn't smart? I don't believe you.

[supremebve]

2 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

You telling me Renato Sobral, whose chief's striking coach at the time of the second fight with Chuck was a BJJ guy, running straight at and backing up in straight lines against Chuck Liddell wasn't smart? I don't believe you.

I've been watching a lot of older MMA cards lately and it is amazing how many things people just don't know.  How did it take so long to realize that being pinned against the fence is actually to the guy on the bottom's advantage?  Seriously, Tito Ortiz's entire strategy was based on taking his opponent down and putting them in the best position to get up.  If you had to bet who would have won between someone like Cody Garbrandt at 135 lbs. or BJ Penn at 155 lbs. at their peaks, do you think that BJ would have a chance?  BJ could stand in the middle of the octogon with his front foot planted and use the most rudimentary head movement to be a dominant champion.  I have a hard time believing BJ would be able to land anything on someone who actually knows how to stand in range and use footwork and head movement to slip punches.  BJ was really good at what he did, but as soon as he fought Frankie Edgar, who's movement is much less efficient and hits much lighter than Cody, BJ was pretty much done.  This sport evolves so fast it is almost impossible to stay on top for more than a couple years.  The greatness of guys like GSP, Anderson Silva, Jose Aldo, and Jon Jones is so understated.  Being that good for that long is nearly impossible.

[Elsalvajeloco]

19 minutes ago, supremebve said:

I've been watching a lot of older MMA cards lately and it is amazing how many things people just don't know.  How did it take so long to realize that being pinned against the fence is actually to the guy on the bottom's advantage?  Seriously, Tito Ortiz's entire strategy was based on taking his opponent down and putting them in the best position to get up.  If you had to bet who would have won between someone like Cody Garbrandt at 135 lbs. or BJ Penn at 155 lbs. at their peaks, do you think that BJ would have a chance?  BJ could stand in the middle of the octogon with his front foot planted and use the most rudimentary head movement to be a dominant champion.  I have a hard time believing BJ would be able to land anything on someone who actually knows how to stand in range and use footwork and head movement to slip punches.  BJ was really good at what he did, but as soon as he fought Frankie Edgar, who's movement is much less efficient and hits much lighter than Cody, BJ was pretty much done.  This sport evolves so fast it is almost impossible to stay on top for more than a couple years.  The greatness of guys like GSP, Anderson Silva, Jose Aldo, and Jon Jones is so understated.  Being that good for that long is nearly impossible.

There is a reason why Rudy Valentino never trained another notable UFC fighter after BJ Penn really. I think a lot of the trainers back then got away with being able to teach fighters the most elementary things from a particular discipline and it only clicking because that one fighter was athletic enough or talented enough to get away with that. Mike Goldberg talked up Mark DellaGrotte for like 3 straight years for every show on commentary like he's striking coach Jesus when really all his fighters were successful because they knew the raw basics. Once they got in there with someone who had a little more, they got absolutely leveled (ex. Marcus Davis against Nate Diaz and in the last round against Jeremy Stephens). I mean DellaGrotte has trained fighters afterwards like a Rob Font who has looked good here and there, but DellaGrotte as a trainer doesn't really standout like a Brandon Gibson or Duane Ludwig where guys have made appreciable strides in terms of technique under them.

I mean Parillo is basically a more evolved version of Rudy Valentino and looked how BJ looked in his last few fights.

Like go back and watch Joe Rogan talk up Rob Kaman in Brandon Vera's first UFC fights before he had that brief contract dispute. You would think Rob Kaman invented muay thai and Dutch style kickboxing and changed the landscape of MMA forever.