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2017 Non-Event General MMA Talk Thread


Elsalvajeloco

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36 minutes ago, supremebve said:

I don't know if there is a worse stylistic matchup on the entire planet for Holly Holm.  Holm's is all technique with no art, she knows how to do everything but she's not dynamic in any way.  She's Kirk Cousins, if everything goes the way she planned it she can win, but a soon as she has to adjust to her opponent's pressure she is prone to mistakes.  Cyborg is essentially Lawrence Taylor, Reggie White, Bruce Smith, Von Miller, and Julius Peppers all wrapped into one.  She's all pressure all the time and Holly Holm doesn't have an offensive line.

I think Cyborg's main problem (and it mostly has to do with her dominance so no fault of her own) is she decides to stalk people until she land a good combination because she knows her opponent with allow her to. If she wants to run into straight left hands all night and allow Holly to land body kicks, Holly will do just that because Holly can do the point game. Then, Holly can see if Cris will bite on a feint so she can go upstairs with a kick. In Cyborg's ten plus years of fighting, when has she ever had to worry about something like that? I mean Carano's Master Toddy rudimentary women's cardio kickboxing bullshit wasn't going to cause that concern.  I think the closest was when she lost in Lion Fight a few years back when she was just so overeager that she was running into strikes headlong, and Holly's game is way more practical (especially for MMA) than Jorina Baars.

giphy.gif

Holly can't do that?

So what I'm saying is if Cyborg wants to be safe, going for takedowns and trying to slam Holly through the mat each and every round is the right gameplan.

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1 minute ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I think Cyborg's main problem (and it mostly has to do with her dominance so no fault of her own) is she decides to stalk people until she land a good combination because she knows her opponent with allow her to. If she wants to run into straight left hands all night and allow Holly to land body kicks, Holly will do just that because Holly can do the point game. Then, Holly can see if Cris will bite on a feint so she can go upstairs with a kick. In Cyborg's ten plus years of fighting, when has she ever had to worry about something like that? I mean Carano's Master Toddy rudimentary women's cardio kickboxing bullshit wasn't going to cause that concern.  I think the closest was when she lost in Lion Fight a few years back when she was just so overeager that she was running into strikes headlong, and Holly's game is way more practical (especially for MMA) than Jorina Baars.

giphy.gif

Holly can't do that?

So what I'm saying if Cyborg wants to be safe, going for takedowns and trying to slam Holly through the mat each and every round is the right gameplan.

Holly has a path for victory, but I feel like they are all based on how Cyborg decides to fight not how Holly decides to fight.  If Cyborg allows Holm to set up and control the distance, Holm can peck her to death with jabs and leg kicks.  The problem is I don't think Holm hits hard enough to stop Cyborg from just walking through her jab and works inside kicking distance.  Unless Cyborg runs into her punches head first like Ronda Rousey did, how does Holly stop her from getting inside?  Holly is like one of those boxers who gains a reputation for being a great sparring partner, but they never actually show anything in actual fights.  She's extremely well trained, but is moderately talented.  She has a chance to win, but I have no reason to believe her pitty pat punches will stop the hurricane force power of Cyborg.  

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2 minutes ago, supremebve said:

Unless Cyborg runs into her punches head first like Ronda Rousey did, how does Holly stop her from getting inside?  

Jabs which she does a frequently and moving away which is why most orthodox fighters get frustrated trying do that. People try to time that jab and then she throws a kick to the body. Now, you have to figure if she will throw a kick or try to go for that straight left. Once people start overthinking, that is when she times that headkick. That's her bread and butter. The whole reason why Shevchenko was able to manuever around that after round 1 is Holly showed her tell and went back to those same combos. As time moved went by, Holly was missing wider and wider and getting hit by the same combos that Valentina was throwing. Valentina could play the point fighting game for Holly because she isn't looking to knock Holly out. She is just trying to bait her. Cris works a boxing game that, again no fault of her own, is centered around her being able to do whatever. Throw a right hook, throw a left hook, an uppercut, and a cross with no hesitation and very little setup for the successive blows and strikes. Before she came to the US and was still with Chute Boxe, all of that was very sloppy. She went to Arena MMA, then Kings MMA, and some of those gyms in SoCal and cleaned all of that, however, it's nothing that can't be easily figure out. Jorina Baars exposed that something fierce and Jorina didn't even fight a great fight. Cris just ran into EVERYTHING. Jorina wasn't going to let Cris have this Mayweather Boxing Club smoker/brutal sparring session.  That's why Cris was so frustrated and tried to slam Jorina in a kickboxing match. When you don't fear anything coming back at you, you forget strategy and feel invincible. If Cris was the type to set traps like a Valentina, I think she would melt the hell out of Holly especially since she has more power and Holly was knocked out by someone who wasn't a big puncher. However, since she got away from Chute Boxe and now works with Jason Parillo, her game is to let you give her the opening so she can run through it. I don't think Holly is the world's best striker by any means, but you can't throw a simple cross like she is Faith Van Duin and break her nose. In a striking battle, you have to be as surgical as she is to beat her. 

IMO it comes down to will Cris make her own opportunities or will she just wait for Holly to give them to her. Cris wins the former not the latter.

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36 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

IMO it comes down to will Cris make her own opportunities or will she just wait for Holly to give them to her. Cris wins the former not the latter.

Yeah, this is pretty much my argument in a nutshell.  I just don't think Holm has enough firepower to make Cyborg respect her point fighting nonsense enough to keep her away.

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7 minutes ago, supremebve said:

Yeah, this is pretty much my argument in a nutshell.  I just don't think Holm has enough firepower to make Cyborg respect her point fighting nonsense enough to keep her away.

I don't think it's really nonsense because she has a clear endgame given the opponent. Against Bethe Correia? I mean based on the reaction the Pitbull brothers after Holly dinged their girl up bad, I don't think they really did any tape study and just let Bethe regress into that fighting style that the Pitbull brothers made famous in Bellator that she doesn't have the physical skill to implement. So yeah, that played right into Holly's hands once Bethe decided to actually fight. Against a Marion Reneau and Raquel Pennington (and a good portion of the Tate fight), she can use her movement and timing (and physical strength) to get folks off balance. That's a clear endgame she can actually implement and most girls in the UFC  don't even have prerequisite skills to get to that point unless there are clear physical mismatches (ex. Suarez and Sucuri Pereira last Saturday although Suarez can probably do that people who should be fighting at 115).  I think part of Holly's problem is she has been with Winkeljohn so long and those strategies of when to apply which patterns to which style matchup has been so successful that deviation has been so tough. That third round on in that fight with Valentina is proof of that. However, if Cris plays that game and she has shown herself willing to do that, Holly doesn't have to be a KO machine to do what she has been doing for a decade and a half. That's my point. Jorina Baar ain't exactly the most powerful striker and she had five or six opportunities to knock Cris out. 

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After the mini controversy of GdR pulling out of the fight and then her manager claiming she never took the fight to begin with, Cat Zingano will instead be the one to face Ketlen Vieira. It is set for UFC 222.

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PVZ's return fight will be against the recently victorious Jessica-Rose Clark on the Fight Night card in St. Louis.

It looks like Jacare and Derek Brunson will be rematching, however, it's unclear where it will take place. Jacare believes it is happening in Belem while Brunson believes it is happening on his hometown card in Charlotte.

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27 minutes ago, Oyaji said:

Fuck yeah. Should be great. I still feel like 219 is a weak (almost) NYE card, so hopefully Diaz/Woodley is added soon.

I think it's a pretty good card considering they put a major resources into 217 and 218 and decided not to just drop random bouts on the card. Granted, I might be the only one who really likes Cyborg vs. Holm so there is that.

FWIW, I think the card is done with the only possible change besides an injury or USADA situation is someone replacing Emil Meek because he might not be able to get his visa in time. Woodley vs. Diaz was always a longshot for 219, and if anything, Tyron might be better served waiting to see what GSP does. Everyone in GSP's camp is sour about him staying at 185 if he does fight again. Personally, I don't see Woodley/Diaz, especially only a month out, being that much more of an improvement business to the show since it's so out of left field. It's not even UFC 196 out of left field. If the UFC wants to keep the McGregor trilogy in their back pocket, why let Tyron Woodley embarrass Nate Diaz on short notice?  Also, it makes no sense to pay Nate millions for a fight that isn't going to do that type of business. Woodley actively wants to sell that fight and I commend him for that, but they're not going to get the same media coverage that anything resembling UFC 196 and UFC 202. The UFC made Cyborg vs. Holm happen so that contingency plan is up in smoke (pun kinda intended).

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Some news from the latest Wrestling Observer Radio:

  • Ari Emanuel is negotiating BOTH the next UFC and WWE TV deals (apparently he was responsible for getting the last WWE TV deal).
  • The hope is that the UFC will get their deal done (on a handshake basis) before the end of the year and get the pertinent details ironed out so Ari can move on to the WWE TV deal in March when the WWE be allowed to talk to outside suitors.
  • The UFC is asking for a new deal in the range of $420-430 million. Meltzer estimates that getting to $300 million would be a big boon for them in the wake of last year's sale and the loans.
  • Fox had an offer for the UFC but the two sides were not surprisingly far apart.
  • The big suitors besides Fox for the UFC as of now are NBC and Turner Broadcasting with ESPN being on the outside looking in due to their current situation and signing the deal with Top Rank Boxing this year.
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On 11/21/2017 at 3:13 PM, Elsalvajeloco said:

 

I hope this has to mean that Mark Hunt's lawyer is not a complete and utter moron and isn't trying to just swindle him out of his money.  From a legal standpoint, he didn't have much of a leg to stand on at all here after he put his name on that blog he said was "taken out of context."

There is no way UFC gets over $400 million.

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1 hour ago, TheVileOne said:

There is no way UFC gets over $400 million.

I'm not betting a particular figure, but I'm not sure that something is out of the realm of possibility simply because no one is going to be able to grab another major sports property anytime soon. They've been asking for a big number WAY before the sale last year. If that was enough to scare people off, then I doubt NBC or Turner would even feign interest and let Fox just lowball them. The UFC is clearly playing hardball with Fox because they know Fox doesn't want to lose the UFC because they can hang their hat on having the UFC w/ NASCAR tanking and it's guaranteed to grab a certain demographic in respectable numbers vs. the competition. Fox went from having to compete against one potential suitor (ESPN) to multiple potential suitors (NBC Universal, Turner Broadcasting/Time Warner, and Amazon). If there is anytime to fleece somebody for close to half a billion dollars, this would be the time. This goes especially since Ari Emanuel is pulling a power move to negotiate a TV deal several months before the current deal actually ends so he can negotiate ANOTHER deal worth hundreds of millions of dollars for a completely different company. That's some gangster shit.

And this weird part about this is (as the John Ourand article from earlier this week pointed out) there is a chance Fox might want to replace UFC with WWE should the WWE be available. The problem is if Endeavor (aka WME/IMG) is negotiating and advising on behalf of WWE (who they represent), there is no way they will undercut themselves to help out another company. That's something Meltzer kinda hinted at during the Observer show. Moreover, if any potential offer hinges on offering PPV fights on TV (a sticking point from the Ourand article), giving the UFC a pretty good deal (in the range equal to or greater than $300 million) pretty much solves the problem of UFC having to worry about PPV in the first place. If they get stable money to pay back those loans and have a bigger source of revenue, then whatever profit they turn on PPV is just more icing on the cake. Matter of fact, offering seven or eight PPVs a year max is a way more reasonable business model than the model they've developed during the Zuffa years.

Basically, the UFC is obviously letting this cat and mouse game play out so they get a number in their ballpark (whether the # is ridiculous or not). 

 

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11 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:
  • The hope is that the UFC will get their deal done (on a handshake basis) before the end of the year and get the pertinent details ironed out so Ari can move on to the WWE TV deal in March when the WWE be allowed to talk to outside suitors.

Can you elaborate on the WWE talk? What ties do they have? Never heard of this before.

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4 minutes ago, Edwin said:

Can you elaborate on the WWE talk? What ties do they have? Never heard of this before.

The WWE will be able to negotiate a new media rights deal and talk to outside interested parties (folks who aren't NBC Universal) in March 2018 and Endeavor (dba/bka as WME/IMG) is going to negotiate on behalf of WWE, who they happen to represent. Apparently, Ari and Vince are good friends and Ari helped WWE get their last TV deal. 

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6 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

The WWE will be able to negotiate a new media rights deal and talk to outside interested parties (folks who aren't NBC Universal) in March 2018 and Endeavor (dba/bka as WME/IMG) is going to negotiate on behalf of WWE, who they happen to represent. Apparently, Ari and Vince are good friends and Ari helped WWE get their last TV deal. 

Had no idea WME/IMG was going to negotiate on behalf of WWE too. WME also purchased the Serie A Italian football TV rights worldwide so they need to negotiate those out too for next season.

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