2017 Non-Event General MMA Talk Thread

[Elsalvajeloco]

28 minutes ago, grilledcheese said:

I'm not sure I follow this. Why is he apologizing to a tribal commission in Connecticut for a fight that happened in Ireland? I'm assuming that they were the commission for the event, but why? Is there no regulatory body that handles combat sports in Ireland?

Yes to both. Michael Mazzulli is the head of that particular commission (and also ABC president) and oversaw the last Bellator show in Dublin. Ireland has a boxing commission, but no MMA commission from what I can see.

[TheVileOne]

McGregor's attempt at an apology when he's facing major sanctions from the ABC and a potential lawsuit from the person he slapped was piss poor.

[Elsalvajeloco]

I don't think they would pass any sanctions on McGregor just because any commission he fights under stands to make the most money they will ever make. What has the ABC itself done in the last 3-4 years to any fighter of note? Who gives the ABC its power? The thing is going through all these meetings where they wouldn't clear him to fight until he paid a small fine, faced some slap on the wrist suspension, or wasn't allowed to corner anyone takes more time than it's worth. The only reason they would perhaps keep his name and this particular issue on the agenda (whether it's New York, California, or Nevada) instead of tabling it for another meeting months later is he is Conor McGregor. That's how this usually goes. You issue a BS apology now and serve yourself time from doing it on a long ass Nevada commission meeting on a some conference call you don't want to be on.

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

[TheVileOne]

Adriano Martins is good, and they should've kept him around.  He's underrated.  I could probably find at least 50 guys under contract the UFC could stand to cut rather than Martins.

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 minute ago, TheVileOne said:

Adriano Martins is good, and they should've kept him around.  He's underrated.  I could probably find at least 50 guys under contract the UFC could stand to cut rather than Martins.

At lightweight, there is also 50 guys who do the exact same job as Adriano. Kinda the problem. It also doesn't help they probably wanted him to beat Kajan because of the stir Kajan caused at that fighter summit right before he fought Martins. Then, Kajan deaded him and made them forget about that because they can use that for their highlight reels. So yeah, his career in the UFC really ended because Kajan Johnson basically won them over by knocking him out randomly.

[supremebve]

8 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

 

I just watched Gomi vs. Kawajiri the other night, and it really sucks that the lightweight division was so under represented during Gomi's era.  He was one of the most exciting champions ever, but was shop worn and done by the time he got to the UFC.  I honestly don't know how to rank him in the grand scheme of the lightweight division.  He could very well be the most decorated champion, but still be outside of the top 10 all-time.

[TheVileOne]

9 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

At lightweight, there is also 50 guys who do the exact same job as Adriano. Kinda the problem. It also doesn't help they probably wanted him to beat Kajan because of the stir Kajan caused at that fighter summit right before he fought Martins. Then, Kajan deaded him and made them forget about that because they can use that for their highlight reels. So yeah, his career in the UFC really ended because Kajan Johnson basically won them over by knocking him out randomly.

If that's the reason they cut him, that's equally dumb.  

[Elsalvajeloco]

2 minutes ago, supremebve said:

I just watched Gomi vs. Kawajiri the other night, and it really sucks that the lightweight division was so under represented during Gomi's era.  He was one of the most exciting champions ever, but was shop worn and done by the time he got to the UFC.  I honestly don't know how to rank him in the grand scheme of the lightweight division.  He could very well be the most decorated champion, but still be outside of the top 10 all-time.

I think someone like Gomi was great (sprewellrimz texts me randomly about the Azeredo KO at least twice a year), but I can't argue that he didn't benefit from the era he was in. Being a long and lanky southpaw boxer against a bunch of dudes who probably should be fighting at bantamweight and featherweight will help your career. Frankie Edgar is probably going to be the smallest lightweight champion we're going to have for a good while but how would anyone pick prime Gomi over Frankie Edgar? Gomi would have a puncher's chance, but once Gomi was on the ground, he would get worked like a part time job in the summer. I mean people try to penalize BJ Penn for not being active when he was supposedly the best lightweight ever before he had that run with the belt from 2008-2010, but Gomi's strength of schedule in PRIDE ain't exactly a murderer's row. You almost have to put Gomi in the pioneer category because no one really knew about talent level in the lower weight classes before Shooto had that crop of guys and many them jumped to PRIDE and K-1/Hero's.

[Elsalvajeloco]

14 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

If that's the reason they cut him, that's equally dumb.  

You gotta win those fights. If he won that fight, he would still be on roster. Who is going to miss Adriano Martins? I mean the Leo Santos fight was a stinker, and he lost that one. Was there a big discussion on Adriano Martins here that I missed?

[supremebve]

1 minute ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I think someone like Gomi was great (sprewellrimz texts me randomly about the Azeredo KO at least twice a year), but I can't argue that he didn't benefit from the era he was in. Being a long and lanky southpaw boxer against a bunch of dudes who probably should be fighting at bantamweight and featherweight will help your career. Frankie Edgar is probably going to be the smallest lightweight champion we're going to have for a good while but how would anyone pick prime Gomi over Frankie Edgar? Gomi would have a puncher's chance, but once Gomi was on the ground, he would get worked like a part time job in the summer. I mean people try to penalize BJ Penn for not being active when he was supposedly the best lightweight ever before he had that run with the belt from 2008-2010, but Gomi's strength of schedule in PRIDE ain't exactly a murderer's row. You almost have to put Gomi in the pioneer category because no one really knew about talent level in the lower weight classes before Shooto had that crop of guys and many them jumped to PRIDE and K-1/Hero's.

Yep.  

The Kawajiri fight was such a big fight, because Kawajiri was pretty much the Gomi of Shooto.  Both guys were smashing anyone who stood in their path in devastating fashion, and they put them in the ring together at their absolute peak.  Between Gomi vs. Kawajiri, Wanderlei vs. Rampage, and Fedor vs. Cro Cop, Pride may have had three of the five biggest fights of all time.  There were bigger fights as far as money, but all three of those fights felt like the best guys in the world fighting at their absolute peaks.  

[TheVileOne]

I loved Gomi in his heyday, but even back in 2006, Marcus Aurelio of all people was easily able to take him down and submit him.  It's just proof that styles and match-ups weigh heavily on the outcome of a fight, and Gomi's penchant for laziness.

That said, I think it was garbage he lost that decision to Diego Sanchez.

[supremebve]

4 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

I loved Gomi in his heyday, but even back in 2006, Marcus Aurelio of all people was easily able to take him down and submit him.  It's just proof that styles and match-ups weigh heavily on the outcome of a fight, and Gomi's penchant for laziness.

That said, I think it was garbage he lost that decision to Diego Sanchez.

Gomi was of his time.  He was essentially a lightweight Chuck Liddell, a big puncher who was a good enough wrestler that he could defend your takedown long enough to make you eat a knockout blow.  MMA striking defense was so poor at that time that if you had a rock hard chin and knockout power all you had to do was keep the fight standing.  

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 minute ago, supremebve said:

Gomi was of his time.  He was essentially a lightweight Chuck Liddell, a big puncher who was a good enough wrestler that he could defend your takedown long enough to make you eat a knockout blow.  MMA striking defense was so poor at that time that if you had a rock hard chin and knockout power all you had to do was keep the fight standing.  

Joachim Hansen would be like 0-6 this era in the UFC unless he was facing straight jobbers on Fight Pass. Once his chin went, his career went with him.

[supremebve]

17 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Joachim Hansen would be like 0-6 this era in the UFC unless he was facing straight jobbers on Fight Pass. Once his chin went, his career went with him.

Gomi's prime ended as soon as someone realized they should move their head while defending.  It is amazing how much harder it is to knock the shit out of someone who isn't just standing there letting you wing punches at their head.  

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 minute ago, supremebve said:

Gomi's prime ended as soon as someone realized they should move their head while defending.  It is amazing how much harder it is to knock the shit out of someone who isn't just standing there letting you wing punches at their head.  

That's why I was never clamoring about Gomi's boxing being great like some random dude on Sherdog or your run of the mill MMA forum. Yeah, you gonna look like Ricardo Finito Lopez or Ramon Dekkers against one of the lesser Brazilian Top Team fighters who is a strictly a BJJ player or Ralph Gracie. Once people can get inside those wide ass hooks, that's night night especially any orthodox fighter with a good right hand. But again, if it worked in his era, it worked for that era and he was very successful at implementing that.

[supremebve]

5 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

That's why I was never clamoring about Gomi's boxing being great like some random dude on Sherdog or your run of the mill MMA forum. Yeah, you gonna look like Ricardo Finito Lopez or Ramon Dekkers against one of the lesser Brazilian Top Team fighters who is a strictly a BJJ player or Ralph Gracie. Once people can get inside those wide ass hooks, that's night night especially any orthodox fighter with a good right hand. But again, if it worked in his era, it worked for that era and he was very successful at implementing that.

The only reason I'm not a "Pride Never Die" guy is because their entire roster seemed to get exposed when they fought the UFC's elite.  I honestly think Pride's biggest gift and curse were all the tomato can fights.  I think guys like Gomi, Wanderlei, Rampage, Fedor, Cro Cop, etc. felt like unstoppable monsters because they were able to fight a bunch of dudes who had no business in the ring with them.  At the same time, steel sharpens steel.  If you fight a bunch of tomato cans, how much are you improving?  Gomi never learned how to box effectively, because he spent years destroying guys with those terrible looping hooks.  Look at a guy like Dustin Poirier who is a talented fighter who had some huge holes in his game.  He went from being a guy who said he didn't know what a double leg takedown was to a guy who thoroughly out wrestled a former champion.  He is a guy who has to work his ass off to improve in every aspect of MMA, because the current lightweight division is full of sharks looking to feed on your weaknesses.  There is a reason why extended title runs are rare in the UFC.  Unless you are a legitimate all-time great fighter, the level of competition is too high for you to hold a belt for more than a few fights.  I loved Pride, but I've gone from thinking they were the best MMA promotion of their time to thinking that they were clearly below the UFC.  

[TheVileOne]

Who are you to doubt Minowa-man? And Zuluzinho?  

[Elsalvajeloco]

I think it's just very hard to compare PRIDE with the UFC in the last five or six years unless we're talking mostly about Brock coming back for one fight or like CM Punk. I mean you had Tank coming back like 15 years ago, but he was brought back to build fighters up. I understood why folks like Zuluzinho and Minowaman (who I loved seeing lose BTW) were around especially since the crux of their business depended on ratings, attendance, and sponsorship. PRIDE focused on homegrown talent, but it was in a much different way than the UFC allowing folks like Poirier and Holloway to go from good young prospects to high level top 5 or top 10 talent. I think relying on Shooto, DEEP, 2H2H, Meca Vale Tudo, ICON/SuperBrawl, etc to be the talent pipeline kinda worked but didn't work at the same time. You're not going to have a new Kazushi Sakuraba or Fedor or Wanderlei Silva show up every six months no matter if they're talented or not. Being entrenched with the yakuza was their undoing and they didn't naturally let talent develop. The throw an Olympic wrestler or judoka/sumo wrestler in there and hope something good happens is only a short term solution much like Bellator hoping someone like Jack Swagger helps fill the void left by Kimbo no longer being around. Maybe Edwin can speak more to this, but I felt like PRIDE was going to hit a giant wall sooner or later whether the kakutogi boom continued or not. Nothing like that can be sustained unless you have the next generation of fighters mixed with larger than life personalities (and I don't mean just a handful of fighters) solidified to take over for that next 5-10 years. God knows the UFC has had their problems (fighter pay, fighter treatment, prospect matchmaking, production elements, etc.), but I felt the UFC made enough right decisions from late 05 to 09 to survive brutal down periods in terms of business. If they didn't make those decisions, I doubt MMA as a whole ends being more popular than a niche NASCAR series and Slamball is now.

In short, my point is that PRIDE was around to galvanize a more mainstream audience for MMA in Japan but largely got a strong hardcore audience stateside in addition to that before dying off. It had its purpose, but I think comparing a lot of the fighters (especially those who peaked in 01-03) to those of today is pretty much fruitless now. They made for fun debates and arguments ten or eleven years ago. Not so much now.

[Craig H]

Weird coincidence - I was just thinking about Minowaman yesterday. I can't even recall why I was.

[AxB]

So, McGregor does a cage invasion to celebrate a victory and then loses it when the ref (who might not even have realised it was him) tells him to fuck off out of the cage... and then says the ref was at fault for not stopping it.

He did stop it. The knocked out opponent was endangered more by McGregor shoving Godard into him during the fracas than anything Marc Godard did.

Edit to add: Watching last night's TUF. Why is it that generally, when fighters weigh in, they look like they've been dragged through hell, but Rachael Ostovich-Berdon looked like a Hawaiian Trish Stratus? 

[supremebve]

2 hours ago, AxB said:

Watching last night's TUF. Why is it that generally, when fighters weigh in, they look like they've been dragged through hell, but Rachael Ostovich-Berdon looked like a Hawaiian Trish Stratus? 

I think it is all about how much body fat a fighter has.  Being super lean makes you look better when you are fully hydrated, but when you cut that extra water weight you look like Sally Struthers needs to be collecting money for your health.

[Elsalvajeloco]

Looks like Stipe Miocic could be returning in the first quarter of 2018. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

[supremebve]

28 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

 

I don't know if there is a worse stylistic matchup on the entire planet for Holly Holm.  Holm's is all technique with no art, she knows how to do everything but she's not dynamic in any way.  She's Kirk Cousins, if everything goes the way she planned it she can win, but a soon as she has to adjust to her opponent's pressure she is prone to mistakes.  Cyborg is essentially Lawrence Taylor, Reggie White, Bruce Smith, Von Miller, and Julius Peppers all wrapped into one.  She's all pressure all the time and Holly Holm doesn't have an offensive line.