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2017 Non-Event General MMA Talk Thread


Elsalvajeloco

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If you want to trim the roster, plenty of other places to trim then your legit top 10 light heavyweights.  Just IMHO.  There are probably dozens more they should be pruning at lightweight and welterweight instead.

I also realize they are not necessarily getting rid of them forever either.  Fighters have left and been in and out of the UFC and come back.  But I'm not backing down on how bad the state of light heavyweight is right now and they shouldn't be gutting all the legit top 10 contenders just for some short-term gratification.

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56 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

If you want to trim the roster, plenty of other places to trim then your legit top 10 light heavyweights.  Just IMHO.  There are probably dozens more they should be pruning at lightweight and welterweight instead.

But again, they're not really trimming the roster. Trimming would be cutting a few guys and gals here and there. This is more and less "If you're irrelevant to our overall business or your contract is due, you're probably in imminent danger if you have no clear value." Potential is great but you have plenty of other people with potential as well who are serviceable in other areas. Anyone who can bring 800k to 1 million on FS1 is going to have more of a leash to prove themselves than random mid tier fighter winning fights 3rd from the top on the main card.

56 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

I also realize they are not necessarily getting rid of them forever either.  Fighters have left and been in and out of the UFC and come back.  But I'm not backing down on how bad the state of light heavyweight is right now and they shouldn't be gutting all the legit top 10 contenders just for some short-term gratification.

But it's not really short term gratification when the area that needs fixing has been bad almost long-term. If the division was bad WITH those guys, then how are those guys going to be an asset eventually knowing that a loss sets people back and can destroy any hope that people have for them? A guy can go from winning several fights or enough fights to going 3-5 or 3-6 over the next 3 years without even sniffing a title shot. "Oh yeah, I remember being hype for that fighter five years ago." We've seen this too many times. Shit, you're one of those guys who is the most rabid about cutting this and that guy when they lose several fights. Again, it's like trying to fix a shitty offense. Yeah, this random guy had a one or two 100 or 200 yard rushing games. Then, they just fall off the cliff production wise for the rest of the season. Whether you keep them or not in the offseason, they're STILL not the answer because offense is still terrible. You might make one or two moves that forces that person to be more or less relevant, but you're not fooled about what that person can do. If the measurement stick is "they need live bodies" well shit....they got dudes to be that. That's not the problem as I already explained. If you're waiting on the next Jon Jones, that guy is going to come around whether or not these dudes are on roster. If the division is still bad, there is nothing these dudes could do to make it not bad especially in the relatively future when there is a good chance Jon Jones will be light heavyweight champion after another long layoff before the end of the year.

I like Cirkunov and Krylov, but I ain't pulling out the cape for a stopgap.

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40 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

But it's not really short term gratification when the area that needs fixing has been bad almost long-term. If the division was bad WITH those guys, then how are those guys going to be an asset eventually knowing that a loss sets people back and can destroy any hope that people have for them? A guy can go from winning several fights or enough fights to going 3-5 or 3-6 over the next 3 years without even sniffing a title shot. "Oh yeah, I remember being hype for that fighter five years ago." We've seen this too many times. Shit, you're one of those guys who is the most rabid about cutting this and that guy when they lose several fights. Again, it's like trying to fix a shitty offense. Yeah, this random guy had a one or two 100 or 200 yard rushing games. Then, they just fall off the cliff production wise for the rest of the season. Whether you keep them or not in the offseason, they're STILL not the answer because offense is still terrible. You might make one or two moves that forces that person to be more or less relevant, but you're not fooled about what that person can do. If the measurement stick is "they need live bodies" well shit....they got dudes to be that. That's not the problem as I already explained. If you're waiting on the next Jon Jones, that guy is going to come around whether or not these dudes are on roster. If the division is still bad, there is nothing these dudes could do to make it not bad especially in the relatively future when there is a good chance Jon Jones will be light heavyweight champion after another long layoff before the end of the year.

The division was hardly bad because of these guys.  Cirkunov had just started getting some recognition with the Krylov win and quietly built a nice little win streak and beat a top 10 opponent.  I don't see the irrelevancy to the business there because Cirkunov is clearly a good looking and marketable prospect for the division with his record and what he has done int he UFC so far.  Considering how other than GSP possibly fighting this year, the UFC doesn't have any immediate top draws.  But the point is they could have more.  It took a while, but McGregor and Rousey took off.  That could happen with some other fighter as well, and it could be some of the guys they are recklessly losing.  

I'm not talking about just live bodies.  They are gutting their division of its top contenders and prospects.  Where is the bad offense with Cirkunov?  yeah he could go on a 1-4 run, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be locked up for another 4-6 fights to see if he will sink or swim against tougher competition.  

Ovince Saint Preux is in a situation where he's ranked No. 8.  He's still ranked above the last guy who beat him, which is ridiculous. 

Ovince Saint Preux was legit top 10 at one point, but not lately.  He's 1-4 in his last five.  I'm not saying cut Saint Preux, but now we are at a point where they are getting rid of the guys above Saint Preux and so many people have left light heavyweight that now a guy who is on the decline, a slump or what have you on a 1-5 run is sniffing the top 5, which is again ridiculous.  Now there was a time where Saint Preux was a surging contender and was on a really good winning streak.  It wasn't wrong to let him fight higher level guys or give him some main event opportunities because he had worked to a level where those fights were put in front of him. 

It seems by everything you say, UFC should just cut everyone who can't be Jon Jones level.

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21 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

The division was hardly bad because of these guys.

That's not my argument. My point is is if you're just there to help maintain the division in its badness when the current regime isn't here to maintain..then yeah you're fucked if they don't see any value coming from you and you're looking for a new deal.

If the thing is this could happen and that could happen....where was this the last four or five years when we were talking about other guys in the place of those guys? Because none of that shit happened. You had Rumble and DC and maybe Gus as the only dudes still around. You just have other guys just kinda hovering around and doing whatever.

If something is showing you it's not working when you come in, the first thing you're going to do is make wholesale changes. Ari Emanuel isn't about to contextualize the light heavyweight division. It's going to be "Hey, you guys right there can stay....the rest of you need to tread lightly". There is only going to be a very select number of guys who are to going feel (or should feel) comfortable in their current place because they're now expendable all the way around.

I don't see Misha as being marketable (because who the fuck are you really marketing him to), but there is going to be place for people like him on roster. Is it now? Yeah, they decided the answer is no until he either signs a deal they ask him to or feel like he brings more.

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It seems by everything you say, UFC should just cut everyone who can't be Jon Jones level.

If you fail to properly articulate why these dudes mean something, it ain't my fault.

 

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1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

But again, they're not really trimming the roster. Trimming would be cutting a few guys and gals here and there. This is more and less "If you're irrelevant to our overall business or your contract is due, you're probably in imminent danger if you have no clear value." Potential is great but you have plenty of other people with potential as well who are serviceable in other areas. Anyone who can bring 800k to 1 million on FS1 is going to have more of a leash to prove themselves than random mid tier fighter winning fights 3rd from the top on the main card.

how many bantamweights are there in this company and how many draw fans? or lightweights? 

there is infinitely more dead weight at these weight classes than in one of the two most shallow divisions. FFS, Shogun is ranked #6 (#5 after Bader stops being ranked). Lil Nog is #11 (#10 post-Bader) and lost 3 of his last 4. Outside the top three, this division sucks ass. i don't know exactly where the UFC had Krylov/Cirkunov ranked, but it's clear that they need people in that division that are better than half decent.

it's not that i'm a huge fan of either guy, but they both have earned their way to their place. Unless the asking price was absurdly high or the negotiations went terribly, i don't see why you'd let them go when so much of this bloated roster still keeps their spots.  Ultimately i guess it doesn't really matter. The UFC will keep making money and LHW will continue to suck, with or without them.

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15 minutes ago, twiztor said:

how many bantamweights are there in this company and how many draw fans? or lightweights? 

This doesn't matter because those divisions are not safe anyway. The last round of cuts (or contracts expiring) came from every division damn near.  This one wasn't exclusive to just one division. It just happens that some of the notable names came at 205.

15 minutes ago, twiztor said:

there is infinitely more dead weight at these weight classes than in one of the two most shallow divisions.

Bantamweight isn't that big. Some of the people that should be gone will be gone eventually. They cut a ton of lightweights over the last several months. No one really noticed because lightweight is a top division.

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My worry with these cuts is that they seem to be aimed more at the middle of the roster than the low end.  If you are a star you are safe, if you are a lower end fighter but on a cheap contract you are likely somewhat safer, but if you are someone in the middle making a bit of money (or in line to make more) then you are seemingly the most vulnerable.  That approach makes sense short term but would carry legit long term risks, and if they want to commit to that sort of... reverse bell curve distribution then they likely need to focus some more energy on fighter development or at least identification.  

I fall in the "cutting Bader is fine, losing two of your only light heavy prospects is bad" camp.  If Corey Anderson doesn't develop into something then the level of young talent in the division is grim as opposed to "just" poor.

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56 minutes ago, username said:

My worry with these cuts is that they seem to be aimed more at the middle of the roster than the low end.  If you are a star you are safe, if you are a lower end fighter but on a cheap contract you are likely somewhat safer, but if you are someone in the middle making a bit of money (or in line to make more) then you are seemingly the most vulnerable.  That approach makes sense short term but would carry legit long term risks, and if they want to commit to that sort of... reverse bell curve distribution then they likely need to focus some more energy on fighter development or at least identification.  

I fall in the "cutting Bader is fine, losing two of your only light heavy prospects is bad" camp.  If Corey Anderson doesn't develop into something then the level of young talent in the division is grim as opposed to "just" poor.

Well, they also have Jordan Johnson who I think might have a little bit more upside than Corey Anderson.

Anyway, I think the lower tier guys are very vunerable as you're getting a lot of the smaller, bottom tier heavyweights dropping down. If you're a fighter who started out as a LHW and you're winless or like one and a few losses in the UFC, you're fighting to not lose a fight (meaning getting booked over someone else) to someone moving down in weight. For example, Joachim Christensen vs. Bojan Mihajlovic on the Phoenix card was between someone who is a regular LHW and someone who fought at heavyweight in their last fight. That could have been against someone who usually fights at 205 as well. You get it in other divisions, but a lot of those fighters are settling down in their natural divisions or close to the weight they should be fighting at. These are guys who were not good heavyweights competing in a division where everyone should be able to beat a bad or subpar heavyweight (see: Fortuna vs. Anthony Hamilton as how that's suppose to go). If I haven't fought in five or six months coming off a loss in the prelims and see someone who didn't even win at HW getting booked at 205, I'm nervous because I should be more talented than that fighter. Of course you're going to get a Jared Cannonier who wins fights, but that is an exception to the rule.

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I've compiled a list of cuts (including those profiles that were just up on UFC.com despite fighters being retired/inactive):

W Straw
Aisling Daly - RETIRED
Anna Elmose - RETIRED
Izabela Badurek
Seo Hee Ham :(
Ericka Almeida
Jocelyn Jones-Lybarger - RETIRED
Cristina Stanciu
Emily Kagan
Valerie Letourneau

Fly
Sean Santella
Joby Sanchez
Kyoji Horiguchi - Free Agent
Roldan Sangcha-an
Jon Delos Reyes
Chris Kelades
Vaughan Lee
Paddy Holohan - RETIRED
Danny Martinez
Chico Camus
Geane Herrera 
Fredy Serrano
Zach Makovsky - Free Agent
Ali Bagautinov - Free Agent
Yao Zhikui
Willie Gates

M Bantam
Roman Salazar
Urijah Faber - RETIRED
Francisco Rivera
Hugo Viana
Jumabieke Tuerxun
Filip Pejic
Joey Gomez
Bruno Korea
Leonardo Morales
Manny Gamburyan
Yves Jabouin
Matt Hobar
Anthony Birchak
Marcus Brimage
Taylor Lapilus
Takeya Mizugaki
Erik Perez
Jerrod Sanders
Sirwan Kirkai
Leandro Issa
Dileno Lopes
Masanori Kanehara

W Bantam
Miesha Tate - RETIRED
Rin Nakai 
Sarah Kaufman - Free Agent
Milana Dudieva
Jessamyn Duke
Elizabeth Phillips
Julie Kedzie - Inactive/RETIRED

M Feather
Paul Redmond
Thiago Tavares
Tiago "Trator" dos Santos
Mike Wilkinson
Kevin Souza 
Levan Makashvili
Damon Jackson
Masio Fullen
Katsunori Kikuno
Yaotzin Meza
Lucas Martins - Free Agent
Alan Omer
Tatsuya Kawajiri
Clay Collard
Maximo Blanco
Cole Miller
Fernando Bruno
Matt Grice - Inactive/RETIRED
Mike Brown - Inactive/RETIRED
Mark Hominick - Inactive/RETIRED
Kenny Florian - Inactive/RETIRED
Noad Lahat
Phillipe Nover - RETIRED
Horacio Gutierrez
Jim Alers
Rob Whiteford
Diego Brandao
Mark Eddiva
Julian Erosa

Lightweight
Tony Sims
Lukasz Sajewski
Leandro "Buscape" Silva
Glaico Franca
Piotr Hallmann
Shane Campbell
Cesar Arzamendia
Yves Edwards - Inactive/RETIRED
Sean Sherk - Inactive/RETIRED
Mark Bocek - Inactive/RETIRED
Jamie Varner - Inactive/RETIRED
James Krause - Contract Frozen/On new TUF season
Aaron Riley - Inactive/RETIRED
Mehdi Baghdad -> *On new TUF season
Cody Pfister
Efrain Escudero
Yan Cabral
Josh Thomson - Free Agent
Martin Svensson
Norman Parke
Abner Lloveras
Justin Salas

Welterweight
Anton Zafir
Hector Urbina
Sean Spencer
Gasan Umalatov
Andreas Stahl
Vernon Ramos
Enrique Marin
Augusto Montano
Kyle Noke - RETIRED
Cathal Pendred - RETIRED
John Howard
Seth Baczynski -> *On new TUF season
Lance Benoist - Inactive
Brendan O'Reilly
Lorenz Larkin - Free Agent
Rick Story - Free Agent
Duane Ludwig - Inactive/RETIRED
TJ Grant - Inactive/RETIRED
Sean Pierson - Inactive
Mike Swick - RETIRED
Martin Kampmann - Inactive/RETIRED
Claude Patrick - Inactive
Adlan Amagov - RETIRED
Brian Melancon - Inactive/RETIRED
Mats Nilsson - Inactive/RETIRED
Matt Serra  - Inactive/RETIRED
Matt Hughes - Inactive/RETIRED
Paul Taylor - Inactive/RETIRED
Rory MacDonald - Free Agent
Dominic Waters
Josh Koscheck - Free Agent
Jonavin Webb
Mike Jackson
Edgar Garcia

Middleweight
James Te Huna - RETIRED
Buddy Roberts - Inactive
Adam Hunter
Tamdan McCrory
Bartosz Fabinski
Dan Henderson - RETIRED
Caio Magalhaes
Leonardo Augusto Guimaraes
Bubba Bush - Inactive
Tim Kennedy - RETIRED
Elvis Mutapcic
Joe Gigliotti
Tor Troeng
Nick Catone - Inactive/RETIRED
Rich Franklin - Inactive/RETIRED
Mark Munoz - Inactive/RETIRED
Costas Philippou - Inactive/RETIRED
Chris Leben - Inactive/RETIRED
Royce Gracie - Inactive
Alan Belcher - Inactive/RETIRED
Cung Le - Inactive/RETIRED
Brian Stann - Inactive/RETIRED
Kevin Casey
Ricardo Abreu - RETIRED
Chris Dempsey
Joe Riggs

LHW
Nikita Krylov
Misha Cirkunov - Free Agent
Cory Hendricks
Fabio Maldonado
Sean O'Connell
Wanderlei Silva 
Krzysztof Soszynski - Inactive/RETIRED
Chael Sonnen 
Cyrille Diabate - Inactive/RETIRED
Anthony Perosh - RETIRED
Chuck Liddell - Inactive/RETIRED
Stephen Bonnar - Inactive
Forrest Griffin - Inactive/RETIRED
Quinton Jackson - Contractual Issues
Clint Hester
Rafael Cavalcante

HW
Antonio Silva
Cody East
Gabriel Gonzaga - RETIRED
Brock Lesnar - RETIRED
Mirko CroCop 
Shawn Jordan
Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira - RETIRED
Shane Carwin
Brendan Schaub - RETIRED
Antoni Hardonk  - Inactive/RETIRED
Matt Mitrione - Free Agent

Men's Bantamweight and Featherweight got cleaned out.

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10 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I've compiled a list of cuts (including those profiles that were just up on UFC.com despite fighters being retired/inactive)

W Bantam
Miesha Tate - RETIRED
Rin Nakai 
Sarah Kaufman - Free Agent
Milana Dudieva
Jessamyn Duke
Elizabeth Phillips
Julie Kedzie - Inactive/RETIRED
Valerie Letourneau

adding Trouble to the list.

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How are they going to stay in business giving fighters like Josh Koscheck $75,000?  I know they have backing from Viacom, but that seems like a whole lot for a fighter I haven't thought about in about 7 years.  I'm all about fighters getting paid, but there can't possibly be a profitable return on that contract. 

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1 hour ago, supremebve said:

How are they going to stay in business giving fighters like Josh Koscheck $75,000?  I know they have backing from Viacom, but that seems like a whole lot for a fighter I haven't thought about in about 7 years.  I'm all about fighters getting paid, but there can't possibly be a profitable return on that contract. 

Technically, they won't go ever go out of business as long as Viacom owns them. Also, it seems to me that their return is the ratings. Bellator 172 did okay depending on your assumption of what the #s would have been had the original main event went forward.

The thing here is the true worth of Bellator (and its assets) won't be a factor in whether Viacom abandons ship until maybe 1-2 years from now. They're going to continue to invest in free agents and do it aggressively. Someone like Koscheck is a small drop in the bucket because I mean really... how many more fights does Josh Koscheck have left? The problem here is if they didn't want to continue in the PPV business for a show that did 100k, then I doubt you're going to find ANY feasible fights that can do MORE than that to make that a viable endgame. With Viacom going through rebranding on several fronts and executive changeover, it's a matter of business philosophy. If the folks at Viacom are just happy with Bellator existing for their portfolio, Bellator is going to continue to run as usual until otherwise. 

If the new folks at Viacom after a period of time has elapsed decide either that MMA ain't that popping anymore or that the UFC would be the better investment (even if the caveat is they can't own it) for Paramount TV, Bellator would be in a world of hurt. Someone would come to the rescue, but Bellator would have to go back to the days of like Christian M'Pumbu and Omar de la Cruz headlining shows. Then, they wouldn't be able to support contracts like they're giving to Josh Koscheck, Phil Davis, Rory, and the folks they're about to pay. Showtime might take it own, but the thing is....it's still Viacom and they failed at promoting 2nd tier and 3rd tier MMA already. Showtime is still trying to compete with HBO (who I doubt is going to have a very good 2017 unless many things fall in the right place) w/ the quality of boxing fights. Why would they acquire something that would not be a comparative distance in competition with their closest MMA competitor, the UFC/FOX? So if the bragging right is "hey, we got MMA!", the best possible landing spots are like AXS, CBS Sports, NBC Sports, and like Bounce (that I believe had a decent rating w/ PBC recently). Again, no way would they be able to take on those contracts unless they found another media powerhouse like Viacom (even though it's becoming less and less that) to buy it. Competition costs money. When Bellator turned down signing Fedor originally, I thought it was a wise move simply because it removes the urge of having the Icarus flying too close to the sun moment like other UFC competitors had. Right now, even with some new vigor in the promotion, I still believe that. If someone like Meltzer (who is very close with Coker) has no idea where Bellator is headed other than,"I mean...hey, they're running shows" (even though I don't expect him to shit on his buddy on WOR, that's not a vote of confidence IMO), then I don't have that much confidence that anyone new or old in the Viacom offices does either.

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Nikita Krylov signed with EFN. I believe ACB did offer him a ton of money (so much that the UFC decided to not bring him back), but apparently Krylov is not big fan of the Chechen involvement in MMA so that's a no go.

The UFC signed Andre Soukhamthath, and he will be facing Alberto Morales at UFC 209. That's a very good investment for the UFC especially for the bantamweight division.

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1 hour ago, TheVileOne said:

The show did 800,000 viewers.  Don't know what peak viewership was for Bellator 172.  Lewis/Browne the following night did about 900,000 viewers.

Lewis/Browne also had stiffer competition.

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907k was a pretty good number. 807k is good for the OTHER Pitbull brother vs. Josh Thomson, but not good for a show they hyped for awhile and not a ton of people knowing the Fedor fight wasn't happening. It could go either way especially with people tuning out.

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