RIPPA Posted January 1, 2017 Author Share Posted January 1, 2017 Well they are going to be holding the draft sometime after Mania (I am guessing June) so you will eventually get fresh matchups no matter what Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgundy LaRue Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Simply no to bringing the Shield together for a LONG time. Hell, I'd say forever, but this is wrestling and I know better. They keep doing these mini-reunions and booking managed to make the triple threat at Battleground seem lackluster despite being a very good match. The sooner HHH comes back to pull Rollins away from Reigns, the better. They don't need to be in each other's orbits for a good while. Ambrose and Reigns have equal value as singles, for different reasons. The one with problems on that front is Rollins. He's the only one of the three who hasn't been in the upper mid-card since the breakup. I think part of the reason for that is HHH/Vince/booking realizes once he does go down a few notches, he becomes the new Dolph Ziggler. AJ 's issue is obvious: age. Dude is pushing 40 and has only been with WWE for one year. He's an important part of their mid-range planning. If they could see into the future and realize he'll be around for 5-7 more years, things would be easier. But they just don't know. That's not to say Styles doesn't deserve a high-profiled Mania match. He does, and likely will for the next 2-3 years. But he's likely just a stopgap guy for them, and with solid reasoning. I have a hard time seeing Strowman win the Rumble. We don't know if he can work a full match. The 10-minute number against Zayn at Roadblock didn't answer any questions. If anything, it makes one think he's still a long way off from that. He would have to depend on his opponent to carry him and while there are guys on the roster who can do that, how many of them would be cool with it when there's no assurance they'll be rewarded for their efforts down the road? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Cincinnati Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 In defense of Strowman, Foley's presence and the ten minute stipulation at Roadblock did nobody any favours. As much as I wish it were different, most of the audience isn't looking for that kind of stuff in 2016/2017. I expect LMS vs Zayn tomorrow to answer some questions about what Strowman has to offer at the main event level within the next few months. I don't think Rollins is at risk of becoming the new Ziggler. Even if he slips into the upper midcard for a brief stint, Rollins won't suffer too much because Ziggler's problem was never where he was on the card. Ziggler's problem was being neglected and given literally nothing or 50/50 for long stretches. Seth's trajectory at the moment doesn't suggest a short step out of the main events will kill him because there'll likely still be something there for him. The thing the Battleground triple threat made clear for me is what the Shield guys are rather than what I see for each man at his best. What they've done is create three Orton/Edge level guys, but no Cena level guy. Those Orton/Edge level guys are very useful. But unless one of them is getting a serious facelift, it's back to the drawing board as far as finding the next "guy." To which I say have Big E win the Rumble and headline Mania representing the New Day. The card will be stacked enough for one match not to risk killing it. So why not just throw it out there and see if it sticks? Shock factor alone will give it some sizzle, but the act is credible and over enough for it not to feel completely out of place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 They should have went full speed. The booking was ridiculous with Foley basically cheating by eating time on the clock, A standard match with Zayn nearly winning would have been more effective. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph2112 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 I think Big E and Rusev could both rise above shield guys trajectory if treated correctly. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Cincinnati Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 I wanted to avoid this one because it almost requires continued focus on heel authority figures, and screw that... but defiant, hard-edged, anti-authority babyface Kevin Owens would probably have some legs. I think the issues there would be: a) WWE's inclination to book rambling talking segments that go nowhere and don't have any bite and b) Owens trying to be too clever in a "Jim Halpert looks at the camera so you know how smart and funny he is" way, thus becoming more CM Punk than Steve Austin Not that there's anything wrong with Punk. He's a guy who for a sustained period was at a level above the Edge/Orton types, and in the last ten years was the biggest full-time guy they had not named Cena and (for a brief, shining moment) Bryan. But for numerous reasons which have been discussed and debated ad nauseum, he never achieved the heights of success he likely should have. Lord knows the Powers That Be abhor learning from their past wrongdoings, but they should really look at Punk's run and see the blueprint for a series of missteps which should be avoided with a Kevin Owens top babyface run. I'd mention Sami, but Lord knows they don't see THE guy. And realistically, I think Owens has more breakout appeal than Sami anyway, this in spite of my preferring the underground's underdog. Sami's going to be a player, but he also has an Orton/Edge type ceiling (but with far more talent). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgundy LaRue Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Don't know about Big E's trajectory, but the die for Rusev has been cast. It's happened twice: build him up, have a top guy take the US title off him, then stumble around in a bad story for months. The last part is the killer. Losing to Cena and Reigns isn't the end of the world. But these bad romantic angles centered around Lana stop him cold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Cincinnati Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 4 minutes ago, Burgundy LaRue said: Losing to Cena and Reigns isn't the end of the world. I wish more people got this. The group therapy sessions I saw some places when Owens ate it against Cena at 2015's Battleground were insane. It's all about what comes next. Same goes for Wyatt's time against both Cena and Reigns. And Owens now against Reigns. After all these years, you'd think people would have resigned themselves to grudging acceptance about the ways WWE books faces vs heels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eivion Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 What is considered to be the Orton/Edge level? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Cincinnati Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 I'd call it a level where you're seen as a guy who's going to be a credible perennial main eventer, but who isn't going to generate a huge abundance of sizzle, move Cena levels of merch, or be known outside of wrestling. Granted we're in a time where market saturation makes achieving that next level of Cenadom difficult, and regardless of the era it takes a special person receiving the appropriate support from decision makers. It's a difficult thing to achieve and I don't mean to take anything away from Edge or Orton or other contemporary main event guys. If you want to accuse me of selling Orton short or not giving enough credit to those three weeks where Edge was the hottest thing in wrestling, that's fine. But for me, there's a clear line between that level and the level WWE should be looking to get guys on. I hope that adequately explains the idea I was trying to convey with my shorthand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakk_Sabbath Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 16 minutes ago, Eivion said: What is considered to be the Orton/Edge level? Follow up question: given that there were two world belts at the time, how different is that level from a Razor Ramon or Tito Santana level in decades past? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 1 minute ago, Zakk_Sabbath said: Follow up question: given that there were two world belts at the time, how different is that level from a Razor Ramon or Tito Santana level in decades past? If there were two titles in those eras Bret and JYD would be the champions. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Cincinnati Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 9 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said: Follow up question: given that there were two world belts at the time, how different is that level from a Razor Ramon or Tito Santana level in decades past? This is a good question that gives me pause in my glibness. Even though Hitman was in that episode of the Simpson's, I'm tempted to say I'm more concerned here with the difference between the Hogan level and the Bret/Shawn level. I feel like Razor is easily a level below what I'm aiming to capture, where Hall's time in the WWF was firmly on the Jericho level -- touched the main event sometimes, and then slipped back into a primarily upper midcard spot but was always over and credible. For my next trick, I'll differentiate between Razor/Jericho/Rey level guys and Ziggler/Miz level guys. LIke I said, glib. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eivion Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 9 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said: I'd call it a level where you're seen as a guy who's going to be a credible perennial main eventer, but who isn't going to generate a huge abundance of sizzle, move Cena levels of merch, or be known outside of wrestling. Granted we're in a time where market saturation makes achieving that next level of Cenadom difficult, and regardless of the era it takes a special person receiving the appropriate support from decision makers. It's a difficult thing to achieve and I don't mean to take anything away from Edge or Orton or other contemporary main event guys. If you want to accuse me of selling Orton short or not giving enough credit to those three weeks where Edge was the hottest thing in wrestling, that's fine. But for me, there's a clear line between that level and the level WWE should be looking to get guys on. I hope that adequately explains the idea I was trying to convey with my shorthand. What amounts to a huge abundance of sizzle? Was the Summer of Punk stuff that much bigger than Edge big title run and feud against Cena? Or Orton as the Legend Killer? What is the level of merch Cena moves because I recall hearing various guys have outsold him multiple times for years now. And generally to be known outside of wrestling you have to have outside pursuits. Who is really all that well known outside of it aside from Jericho or the Rock? I get your comment about aiming for higher than Orton/Edge level, but honestly I'm not sure any of the current crop are even at that level yet. Those two felt far more over and accepted by the audience at large. I'm also curious where do guys like Rey, Taker, & Batista stand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Cincinnati Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 15 minutes ago, Eivion said: What amounts to a huge abundance of sizzle? Was the Summer of Punk stuff that much bigger than Edge big title run and feud against Cena? Or Orton as the Legend Killer? What is the level of merch Cena moves because I recall hearing various guys have outsold him multiple times for years now. And generally to be known outside of wrestling you have to have outside pursuits. Who is really all that well known outside of it aside from Jericho or the Rock? I get your comment about aiming for higher than Orton/Edge level, but honestly I'm not sure any of the current crop are even at that level yet. Those two felt far more over and accepted by the audience at large. I'm also curious where do guys like Rey, Taker, & Batista stand? The Summer of Punk led to a guy who was reported to have kept pace with Cena in merch sales for quite a while, so I think I rate Punk much more highly than Edge's few weeks at the beginning of '06 before he settled into his level. I'd love exact numbers, but what can I do? For me, Orton at his peak in terms of sizzle wasn't Legend Killer but the punt to Vince and kiss to Steph guy. But once again, they squandered him pretty quick and he settled back to his level. As far as Cena levels of merch, I suppose I'm looking for something sustained. Which partially becomes a matter of, like I alluded to, the company supporting you and giving your merch appropriate space at booths and whatnot. You're right about outside pursuits, but I feel like getting decent offers comes from having that Cena (or even better, Rock) level of appeal. I don't see Jericho as being a guy who's really known outside of wrestling even though he has his projects. I've got Rey below Orton/Edge. Mostly a midcard guy, occasionally touched that next level, then settled back down. Batista's a difficult one, but I feel like he came back down to earth enough after his hot run with Hunter than he settled into Orton/Edge territory. If he were to return full-time now with post-Gaurdians recognition? No clue. To be fair, he didn't get that role off the back of recognition from his wrestling days. He put in the Hollywood leg work to get there. So I struggle to give him that John Cena credibility. Taker now? Part timer and I'm trying to skirt that issue. Taker when he was full time over the past decade? Orton/Edge level, but riding some residual Attitude Era sizzle and recognition. You may be right about the current crop not being at Orton/Edge levels just yet. But keep the Shield guys on their trajectory for another year and I feel it becomes even more ingrained in the audience that these are those kind of guys. I just get the sense that they're settling on that level for all three rather than pushing for more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Lord Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 I can see Braun getting the new Rumble elimination record. But no way is he winning, especially with Goldberg and Brock in there. You're all forgetting about them. I can almost see the WWE having this crazy plan to do Reigns vs. Goldberg at Mania. You know you can see Vince being all SPEAR VS. SPEAR DAMN IT. SPEAR VS. SPEAR. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted January 1, 2017 Author Share Posted January 1, 2017 Well Brock and Goldberg are clearly going to be late entrants You also could have Braun vs. either of them at Mania since that way you don't have to do a long match Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Cincinnati Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Do Brock and Goldberg need to be late entrants? Granting you that they likely will be, I could see an alternative scenario where they do their angle earlier in the match so as not to distract from where they may want the focus to be during the later stages of the match. I do hope the Rumble match keeps Braun away from those two. They likely won't sacrifice either guy for Braun's monster image, and I don't want to see Braun get sacrificed to either of them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt788 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 My pick is Jericho for the rumble, then Owens defeats him at Mania, keeping the title. I have been wrong before and if the past few years are an indication, then Goldberg wins the rumble. )-= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorceressKnight Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 29 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said: This is a good question that gives me pause in my glibness. Even though Hitman was in that episode of the Simpson's, I'm tempted to say I'm more concerned here with the difference between the Hogan level and the Bret/Shawn level. I feel like Razor is easily a level below what I'm aiming to capture, where Hall's time in the WWF was firmly on the Jericho level -- touched the main event sometimes, and then slipped back into a primarily upper midcard spot but was always over and credible. For my next trick, I'll differentiate between Razor/Jericho/Rey level guys and Ziggler/Miz level guys. LIke I said, glib. I'd assume the difference between even that level would be there: Razor/Jericho/Rey guys would be people who weren't main eventers, and it was obvious they weren't main eventers...BUT, at the same time, if you had the right story, it was possible to PUT THEM in a main event at a PPV every so often if you needed an open match, and no one would really question them being at the top. Ziggler/Miz level would be more like where they're upper midcarders, but even with some momentum at their side, if they made it to main event a PPV, it's almost like "Wait, THEY'RE main eventing the PPV? Really? Did someone get injured? Was there a Wellness violation or something?" It's really, on the reverse and the lower end of the card, the same difference of gatekeeper/jobber-types between a mechanic (a Jack Swagger/Mark Henry-type jobber: Someone who's clearly a jobber, they're clearly not going to be a star...BUT, if you really had to, they could conceivably carry a feud, make the feud effective enough...maybe even worthy of a PPV blowoff) vs. a carpenter (a Shining Stars-type where it's "yeah, they're just here to job and make the other guy look good, but no one really cares about them and they probably never will".) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spritenaut 32 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 10 hours ago, The Comedian said: I just watched the Akira Hokuto/Bull Nakano cage match from July '92 cause it popped up on my YouTube recommendations so that was a pretty good way to start the new year too... Just yesterday, Youtube starting suggesting Hokuto/Shinoubu Kandori from early '93. Great, hate-filled war. Both women bleed, both women take an insane amount of punishment, they brawl into the crowd (the better to bang the other's head off metal railings). I think Hokuto is probably my favorite female wrestler evah. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRGoldman Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 I think Strowman interferes in the US title match, and then Reigns comes down to eliminate him in the Rumble (even if Reigns isn't actually entered himself). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyld Samurai Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 You guys made my head hurt today. For the record - Cena, Orton, and Batista all drove me away from the WWE when they went to the top. I tuned in here and there for when Punk started catching fire and then Bryan Danielson caught on... but those guys and their style killed it for me in the 00's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go2Sleep Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 2 hours ago, Eivion said: What is considered to be the Orton/Edge level? I'd label the "second tier legends" the Bret/Shawn group. Top level guys that are highly regarded in pro wrestling circles, but are virtually unknown outside of wrestling. Guys that do a decent to good job making the product watchable during their tenure on top, but don't draw much in the way of outside interest/new fans. WWE has plenty of guys that could be Bret/Shawn level with their talent, but their last two transcendent superstars slipped through their fingers, so they're struggling in that department right now. I honestly think KO with his look and charisma (and relatively protected booking thus far) is the one guy that could maybe break to the next level, but it's gonna be tough with Vince's way of doing things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyld Samurai Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 So you're saying that Cena is on the level of global recognition as Hogan, The Rock, Savage and Austin? Id have a hard time saying that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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