Jump to content
DVDVR Message Board
Sign in to follow this  
Elsalvajeloco

UFC 206: Holloway vs. Pettis (12/10/2016) - Toronto, Ontario, Canada (Air Canada Centre)

Recommended Posts

34 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

Jon Jones won the title when he was 20 years old.  Age doesn't really matter.  If he beats Swanson, he's in the top 5.  How is Yair Rodriguez a more mature well rounded fighter?  Rodriguez has 9 fights.  Choi has 16 fights, and he's finished his last eight.  Rodriguez was only 3-1 in MMA when he had his first UFC fight.  He's hardly more experienced.

Not saying Choi is going to smoke Swanson, or Pettis will smoke Holloway.  But Choi if he gets that win is definitely in that mix.  

You're calling Choi a boy and less mature, when Choi is OLDER than Rodriguez.  Rodriguez is only 24.  If anything, he's still a boy himself.  He's clearly getting better, but I'd hardly call him a mature fighter since he just tends to throw a lot of crazy stuff, and he just barely got a decision win over Bruce Leeroy.

I am not talking strictly just age but physically maturation. Rodriguez is clearly more physical mature than Choi. It would be like comparing Jon Jones when he was at Bombsquad versus Jon Jones like 1 or 2 fights into his Jackson tenure. Choi is basically training at a typical Korean gym, which offers some perks but the upside is certainly limited. However, Rodriguez has had the pleasure of training with the guy who helped get Jon Jones to the place he is now. He has improved tremendously since going to Chicago and also making some stints to Jackson-Wink.

Keep in mind, Do Hoo Choi's resume prior to coming to the UFC include 12 wins over a bunch of random Japanese fighters, past his prime Mitsuhiro Ishida, and Nobuhiro Obiya. Not exactly a murderer's row so that number of extra fights isn't that much experience. There are Brazilian fighters with two or three dozen fights on their record who are still behind American or European fighters with less than ten fights on their docket. Rodriguez came to the UFC and basically beat fighters all in their prime after winning TUF, and showed appreciable improvement everytime out even in the Caceres fight. He has been asked to do more than Choi, who at this point has only been asked to spark out very vulnerable opponents. If this was boxing, Choi would be the guy still fighting six rounders against club fighters and cab drivers. Rodriguez would be just exiting fighting right rounders and fighting ten rounders, maybe being three or four fights away from a potential title eliminator. He's not there yet, but you feel more comfortable putting him in there with a certain level of opponent whereas Superboy is a certain type of opponent. All we know right now is that if your chin questionable, Choi has a good chance of winning. We don't know if his ground game is any good or how good his wrestling is overall. We really don't know how he responds to real adversity. We've seen damn near everything (or at least way, way more) in Yair Rodriguez fights because cage time is more significant in terms of gauging fighters than anything. I think it's being extremely simplistic by saying it's just throwing wild stuff because Andre Fili getting knocked out the way he did was no fluke. At all. You would have to be on the pipe to believe that Rodriguez couldn't replicate those techniques on similar fighters. Shit, no one would say that all Tony Ferguson does is throw wild stuff. That's just asinine in every regard.

Also, if everyone was Jon Jones inside the octagon, Jon Jones would not be as accomplished. He's CLEARLY the exception, not the rule.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well look at Jose Aldo's record pre-WEC.  It's a bunch of random nobodies.  But he got five knockout wins and then gets a title shot.

Doo Ho Choi has been performing since he got to the UFC.  No matter what, if he finishes or beats Swanson, the dude is in the top 5.  No matter how inexperienced or un-seasoned he looks.  I would say considering Rodriguez hasn't fought anybody pre-UFC, the experience Choi has far outweighs his.  

Training at a top gym shouldn't really factor in to you becoming a title contender.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

Well look at Jose Aldo's record pre-WEC.  It's a bunch of random nobodies.

He beat Phil Harris (who eventually would also make it to the UFC) and fought Luciano Azevedo (who beat Aldo when RFT was still considered a good camp and went on to Bellator some years later). He also beat Thiago Minu, Fabio Mello (who was a very serviceable Brazilian vet w/ a very deceptive record), and also Shoji Maruyama (who was closer to his prime when Aldo beat him than when Choi beat him). Aldo was considered a very good prospect coming up. Did people think he would clown Pequeno Nogueira? No, but it wasn't surprising at all he had early success in WEC. This is a very, very bad comparison. People knew Aldo was pretty damn talented. 

Quote

Doo Ho Choi has been performing since he got to the UFC.  No matter what, if he finishes or beats Swanson, the dude is in the top 5.  No matter how inexperienced or un-seasoned he looks.  I would say considering Rodriguez hasn't fought anybody pre-UFC, the experience Choi has far outweighs his. 

That makes no sense. Rodriguez wasn't training with Izzy Martinez, Greg Jackson, or anyone of substance. If you went to someone with some knowledge of Rodriguez in or around competing on TUF, they would say Rosa, Hooker, and certainly Fili beat him and were more quality prospects. He was just chalked up as being another TUF Latin America guy. To beat those dudes the way that he did shows that his ceiling is far higher than anyone expected even knowing that he would certainly improve between being on TUF and now. Choi beat Juan Manuel Puig (who is solid but not the most consistent fighter), Sam Sicilia (who will always lose anyone of note), and Thiago Tavares (who really hasn't found himself at FW). At no point was Choi, who hasn't even it made a whole round in the UFC combined, been asked to face anyone who can compete with him at a certain level. We should give him the benefit of doubt, but giving him the assumption that he will be fine once those questions are asked is a dead end. A lot of the fighters are asked those questions after demolishing everybody, and then fold up like a cheap umbrella in a Florida rainstorm. From David Terrell to Houston Alexander to Erick Silva to Brandon Thatch to whomever you can think of, we've seen this story too many times to act oblivious. 

43 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

Training at a top gym shouldn't really factor in to you becoming a title contender.

I am not saying a top gym. A GOOD gym is definitely a factor. We have gotten exactly zero fighters from South Korea who have challenged for a UFC title let alone ones who trained in South Korea. Entram Gym in Mexico is a respectable gym, but unless you're a female fighter, you're not going to be challenging for a belt if you stay there. The same thing applies for these other places. Poland is going to give you a Joanna, Karolina, and even a Agnieszka Niedźwiedź, but Michal Materla, Krzysztof Jotko, and Mamed Khalidov ain't challenging for UFC belts anytime soon. Not at all. All the South Korean fighters have clear ceilings. They can be good and serviceable and make for some really fun fights. If I have to face Jose fucking Aldo, Max Holloway, or Frankie Edgar, I want to be more than just good and serviceable. You don't even have to send him to ATT or Jackson-Wink. You can send him to Mark Henry/Renzo Gracie/Ricardo Almeida, Matt Hume, or even Cesar Carneiro at MMA Masters in Miami. He's going to be a better fighter than he is now. That's not even really debatable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I am not saying a top gym. A GOOD gym is definitely a factor. We have gotten exactly zero fighters from South Korea who have challenged for a UFC title let alone ones who trained in South Korea. Entram Gym in Mexico is a respectable gym, but unless you're a female fighter, you're not going to be challenging for a belt if you stay there. The same thing applies for these other places. Poland is going to give you a Joanna, Karolina, and even a Agnieszka Niedźwiedź, but Michal Materla, Krzysztof Jotko, and Mamed Khalidov ain't challenging for UFC belts anytime soon. Not at all. All the South Korean fighters have clear ceilings. They can be good and serviceable and make for some really fun fights. If I have to face Jose fucking Aldo, Max Holloway, or Frankie Edgar, I want to be more than just good and serviceable. You don't even have to send him to ATT or Jackson-Wink. You can send him to Mark Henry/Renzo Gracie/Ricardo Almeida, Matt Hume, or even Cesar Carneiro at MMA Masters in Miami. He's going to be a better fighter than he is now. That's not even really debatable.

Umm Chan Sung Jung fought Jose Aldo for the UFC title...He's from South Korea.  Are you really just going to blatantly ignore Korean Zombie?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

Umm Chan Sung Jung fought Jose Aldo for the UFC title...He's from South Korea.  Are you really just going to blatantly ignore Korean Zombie?  

You'll remember that CSJ basically opened up his own gym (left KTT in January that year) and trained with just his homeboys for that fight, and it looked very much like that. When you open up your own gym, choose your homeboys to train you, and basically choose when to train, that's an entire separate category. Vitor Belfort trained that way for Weidman, and I am not looking as that as an indictment of training in South Florida as much as an indictment of folks being bad decision makers before big fights. If you're training yourself, we know how that's going to end.

How many KTT trained fighters are popping off right now, by the way?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope Doo Ho Choi comes out to a rendition of Shawn Michaels' theme song "He's just a sexy Choi.."

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

You'll remember that CSJ basically opened up his own gym (left KTT in January that year) and trained with just his homeboys for that fight, and it looked very much like that. When you open up your own gym, choose your homeboys to train you, and basically choose when to train, that's an entire separate category. Vitor Belfort trained that way for Weidman, and I am not looking as that as an indictment of training in South Florida as much as an indictment of folks being bad decision makers before big fights. If you're training yourself, we know how that's going to end.

How many KTT trained fighters are popping off right now, by the way?

Except you said: "We have gotten exactly zero fighters from South Korea who have challenged for a UFC title let alone ones who trained in South Korea."

So we've gotten one.  You didn't say separate category.  You said there have been zero fighters from South Korea who have challenged for the UFC title.  I'd hardly call Belfort's change in camps as the only reason to assign for his loss to Weidman.  

But none of these reasons are really valid ones to disqualify Doo Ho Choi.  Only a loss to Swanson tomorrow and Pettis walking away with a win.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

So we've gotten one.  

...who as I said didn't have a good performance against the champion prior to suffering an injury. In that time since that occurred (and before that really), there have been no fighters that close to getting even near the title. Stun Gun has been in and out of fringe contendership. Besides that, you have like Dongi Yang and a few fighters here and there. If CSJ left Korean Top Team to train himself just months prior to the biggest fight of his life, that's not a good sign about the quality of training he received there. KTT and Team Mad have produced some solid and exciting fighters, but if you're waiting for someone to be built into a top level elite fighter, you're going to be waiting quite awhile. There have been gyms all over the place that have been able to be the birthplace of fighters with great physical prowess and skill, but very few of them have been able to get the absolute best out of someone. I mean Stun Gun had some great physical attributes that could have been utilized for something great, but staying in Korea pretty much stalled his career. Being a tall fighter with good strength, nice judo throws, ok wrestling, and passable striking only got him so far. He would probably never be champ, but no one argue that a better gym outside of Korea could turned him into a better fighter.

Does anyone know the trainers at Team Mad and what Choi has that's proof positive that said trainers are integral to his success that he wouldn't find in greater quantity elsewhere?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

...who as I said didn't have a good performance against the champion prior to suffering an injury. In that time since that occurred (and before that really), there have been no fighters that close to getting even near the title. Stun Gun has been in and out of fringe contendership. Besides that, you have like Dongi Yang and a few fighters here and there. If CSJ left Korean Top Team to train himself just months prior to the biggest fight of his life, that's not a good sign about the quality of training he received there. KTT and Team Mad have produced some solid and exciting fighters, but if you're waiting for someone to be built into a top level elite fighter, you're going to be waiting quite awhile. There have been gyms all over the place that have been able to be the birthplace of fighters with great physical prowess and skill, but very few of them have been able to get the absolute best out of someone. I mean Stun Gun had some great physical attributes that could have been utilized for something great, but staying in Korea pretty much stalled his career. Being a tall fighter with good strength, nice judo throws, ok wrestling, and passable striking only got him so far. He would probably never be champ, but no one argue that a better gym outside of Korea could turned him into a better fighter.

Does anyone know the trainers at Team Mad and what Choi has that's proof positive that said trainers are integral to his success that he wouldn't find in greater quantity elsewhere?

So we've still gotten one.  That's more than zero.  You said there have been zero fighters from South Korea who have fought for the UFC title when that's not true.  None of those other really mean anything to me at all.  Before Michael Bisping, no Brit had ever won the UFC title, and it never looked like Bisping would win it either.  All it takes is one.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

So we've still gotten one.  That's more than zero.  You said there have been zero fighters from South Korea who have fought for the UFC title when that's not true.  None of those other really mean anything to me at all.  Before Michael Bisping, no Brit had ever won the UFC title, and it never looked like Bisping would win it either.  All it takes is one.  

That's another terrible comparison. The UK's MMA scene is far more historical than South Korea. Cage Rage is far more important to the history of MMA (in addition to all the other notable promotions from the early 00s to 2008ish) than Spirit FC or Road FC ever were. The level of competition in Spirit FC was so bad it made Denis Kang look like a legit MW contender. The UK also had the benefit of France banning MMA and Irish fighters as well being able to compete there as well. The UK is located in a place where finding skilled fighters wouldn't be that hard to find. Even when the UFC was signing tons of Western European talent, there was still a good replenishment of talent in the UK specifically. You also would get a ton of expats showing up and competing.

Moreover, the gyms in the UK are far more modern and comparable to American gyms. At one point, you had top American fighters going over to the UK to train. At NO POINT do I see South Korea's MMA scene blowing enough to where top fighters train in Seoul or Busan.

South Korea would be similar to like Norway, Denmark, Sweden, and Finland. You had some promotions pop up and then disappear, and you had notable native born fighters go to the UFC. Even then, all those scenes was a bit more stable than Korea because you had Japanese promotions siphon Korean talent. You had Alexander Gustafsson, but he clearly got better when he went to Alliance after the Phil Davis fight. Anytime he has went back to All Stars to change it up a little, he has had mixed results. Martin Kampmann spent the vast majority of his UFC career at Xtreme Couture. You had plenty of solid/decent fighters, but not too many fighters put their stamp on their UFC tenures while training at home.

All it takes is one is shitty logic because Bisping has been training in Southern California for years. Andrei Arlovski won a belt as a Belarussian, but the MMA scene in Minsk ain't exactly the business because he was training in Chicago at the time.

BTW My point with Belfort and CSJ isn't about the reasons behind Weidman's win, but there is something to giving yourself a shot (even if it's a small one) versus giving your no shot at all. You can bring in the best of the best to train with, but without certain coaches pushing you everyday in camp, it's going to be way tougher to win a fight without that discipline and/or faith in your coaches. CSJ virtually training himself only reinforces the whole training in Korea thing because he didn't even have trust enough to stay at KTT.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I texted my brother about the news, he is a casual MMA fan that watches most of the events on Fox and FS1 but doesn't order PPVs. Anyway, all he said back was "The real world is faker than wrestling." Hardcores may be able to defend it but to the casual fan having an interim belt on the line for one fighter and not another is really really silly, even if it has been done before in boxing. An interim champion isn't needed if the real champion (Aldo) is still active, just make it a #1 contender match and scrap the interim title idea. I think people just expect UFC to be above that since they are the billion dollar "professional" business when really they are just as carny as every other fighting promotion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I forgot about this show. Not surprised Anthony Pettis didn't make featherweight with how he looked last time out and seeing this now. I'm thinking him, McGregor featherweight version and particularly James Irvin look the worst come weigh-in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This the first UFC PPV when the title fight became a non-title as the challenger missed weight since Travis Lutter against Anderson Silva at UFC 67?

I remember Dillashaw vs. Barao II not happening as Barao was pulled out for health reasons while attempting to make weight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rustam Khabilov called out Kevin Lee after dominating Saggo. I like that fight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very good performance and comeback for Matthew Lopez. Didn't really get a chance to show a whole lot against Yahya, but stepped it up tonight after getting knocked down. Recovered well and took over the fight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Letourneau faded something fierce after the first three and a half minutes. Made it too close and lost.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When did the UFC sign Skeletor? Holy shit, Valerie Letourneau, never cut to 115 again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Misha Cirkunov just earned himself a big fight at 205. Very good performance and nice guillotine to finish.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some of the best hands in MMA. If he sorts his weight problems out, he's a top 3 fighter at either 185 or 170.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...