#205LIVE

[MORELOCK]

24 minutes ago, just drew said:

It’d be hard to convince me wwe sees bate as a bigger commodity than Enzo. Not impossible, though....

No one was making that argument - you said the entire Cruiserweight division outside of Alexander, Swann, and Gallagher had "no upside" and implied that Bate should be held in a similarly low regard. You (and WWE) may not care, but that's a position that is going to meet some resistance on this board.

[Matt D]

Bate’s big upside is his youth. 

[Goodear]

WWE puts no value on youth though.  

We've honestly gone round the bend where 'good workers' are a dime a dozen and someone who can talk and cut promos is the rarer, more valuable commidity.  Enzo is raising the profile of the people around him (most noticibly giving Gulak a platform that helps elevates both of them).  Enzo provides the hook to the show, the rest of the cruisers need to grow personalities to jump through the opening he provided.

[Just Dave]

6 hours ago, MORELOCK said:

No one was making that argument - you said the entire Cruiserweight division outside of Alexander, Swann, and Gallagher had "no upside" and implied that Bate should be held in a similarly low regard. You (and WWE) may not care, but that's a position that is going to meet some resistance on this board.

If I implied that, it was because I forgot he (Bate) was part of the conversation. I see the way wwe books the cruiserweights and it immediately jumps out to me who the wwe is willing to invest in and who they aren't. Getting upset because Enzo Amore is beating guys on tv that  the WWE clearly have no plans for seems silly to me. That's all.

[FireThunder]

"I don't care about your leg!  What are you, Big Cass?"

Decent show this week setting up for the future.  Enzo shitting on Dar before, during, and after his match was tremendous.  Rich Swann is still smooth as hell.

Kalisto getting beat down by the dastardly duo of Kendrick and Gallagher was.. I mean, really no surprise.  It's like Kalisto hasn't seen a match with those two in the last couple of months.

And the tag team main event was a fun match, even though the story it set up for Monday makes no sense.  Oh no, now Ali and Cedric can't trust each other!  ... in a four way match where it's every man for himself.  Gulak's promo pushing Team Power Point (and then getting upset at the crowd for chanting Power Point) was fantastic, as we've come to expect from him.

[Kyuubi]

On 11/28/2017 at 8:45 PM, just drew said:

If I implied that, it was because I forgot he (Bate) was part of the conversation. I see the way wwe books the cruiserweights and it immediately jumps out to me who the wwe is willing to invest in and who they aren't. Getting upset because Enzo Amore is beating guys on tv that  the WWE clearly have no plans for seems silly to me. That's all.

The WWE has plans that last no longer than the night of shows and there is no long term for Enzo. Absolutely none. He is not getting better. His promos are a single catchphrase. And he is hot garbage.

When Bray got hurt and WWE needed someone to fill in for Finn Balor and make the card credible, they called AJ Styles, the Beyonce of WWE, to fill in and draw interest. And he hasn't gotten any substantial promo skills or crazy character. He is just that damn good in the ring. When Jinder was Brock was about as interesting as a family friendly strip club, they put the title on AJ Styles because that would and did make a more interesting match. At the end of the day, promos and build-up only mean something as long as the match is good. Would the Summer of Punk II build-up amounted to anything if Cena vs Punk was just mediocre? Would Daniel Bryan entire career in the WWE be significant if he was just an average wrestler? 

They value in-ring work to draw interest as much as Vince hates to admit it. And that brings us to the Enzo problem. I repeat. I do not have a problem with Enzo winning as I do with Enzo winning and dominating matches with guys who are far superior than him. Tyler Bate losing? No problem. Tyler Bate losing clean to Enzo Amore? Big fucking problem because the guy was the former and first UK champion for fuck's sake. That thing WWE is trying to cultivate for the past 4 months. And it is not just Tyler because I had as much as a problem with him beating Akira Tozawa clean. This guy...

Giving Enzo a title is putting a belt on Hornswaggle. And I am pretty sure that is how the last cruiserweight title died.

[MORELOCK]

5 hours ago, Kyuubi said:

AJ Styles, the Beyonce of WWE

What the fuck

[RIPPA]

Quote

World Wrestling Entertainment will move forward with the first-ever 205 Live brand live events starting in January 2018, PWInsider.com has confirmed.

The current plan is for 205 Live to have its first standalone live events on the weekend of 1/18/18-1/20/18.  We are told WWE will be targeting smaller buildings in the Northeast for that weekend, possibly the same venues they utilize for the WWE NXT brand. 

It appears WWE will be taking a "let's walk before we can run" stance with the brand.  The current 205 Live touring plan appears to be running 2-3 events over a weekend once a month, but beyond the January and potential February dates, we are told that nothing has been set in stone and it's being seen as something of an experiment.

--------------

During a WWE quarter earnings conference call back in February, Vince McMahon noted there were plans to create revenue sources for 205 Live, including live events, licensing and merchandising.  Until now, nothing had moved forward, officially, in terms of those plans and the Cruiserweights continued to work TV tapings.  

 

[RIPPA]

1st three dates are

Friday, Jan. 19, 2018 – Kingston, RI – The Ryan Center
Saturday, Jan. 20, 2018 – Lowell, MA – Lowell Auditorium
Sunday, Jan. 21, 2018 – Poughkeepsie, NY – Mid Hudson Civic Center

[Godfrey]

Whoa, that's a... bold step. But nothing ventured, nothing gained, I guess?

[evilwaldo]

This is not going to end well for the WWE.  Outside of Enzo being a poor man's Honky Tonk Man is there anyone built up?  Will they carry the purple ropes and mood lighting with them?  So many questions.....

At least with NXT, people connected with the wrestlers before taking the brand on the road.

[RIPPA]

They dropped the purple ropes along time ago so one less question for you

[Craig H]

Hideo Itami is joining 205 Live, so that's another attraction for them. If they run smaller buildings, I think it will be fine. 

[Casey]

I've only checked the Lowell building, but it holds 2000-2500, and I'm sure a nice mix of WWE/NXT/indy fans will pay to see people like Itami, Swann, Alexander, Metalik, etc. Especially for an 205 Live house show where they can really let loose.

[Matt D]

I think there should be some initial curiosity there too and the chance to get to see someone new that no one else has seen yet. 

[Beech27]

It might flop, but I like this. Smaller venues are fun, and giving the roster a chance to be something other than an "oh by the way" to the main roster is essential.

[Just Dave]

11 hours ago, Kyuubi said:

The WWE has plans that last no longer than the night of shows and there is no long term for Enzo. Absolutely none. He is not getting better. His promos are a single catchphrase. And he is hot garbage.

When Bray got hurt and WWE needed someone to fill in for Finn Balor and make the card credible, they called AJ Styles, the Beyonce of WWE, to fill in and draw interest. And he hasn't gotten any substantial promo skills or crazy character. He is just that damn good in the ring. When Jinder was Brock was about as interesting as a family friendly strip club, they put the title on AJ Styles because that would and did make a more interesting match. At the end of the day, promos and build-up only mean something as long as the match is good. Would the Summer of Punk II build-up amounted to anything if Cena vs Punk was just mediocre? Would Daniel Bryan entire career in the WWE be significant if he was just an average wrestler? 

They value in-ring work to draw interest as much as Vince hates to admit it. And that brings us to the Enzo problem. I repeat. I do not have a problem with Enzo winning as I do with Enzo winning and dominating matches with guys who are far superior than him. Tyler Bate losing? No problem. Tyler Bate losing clean to Enzo Amore? Big fucking problem because the guy was the former and first UK champion for fuck's sake. That thing WWE is trying to cultivate for the past 4 months. And it is not just Tyler because I had as much as a problem with him beating Akira Tozawa clean. This guy...

Giving Enzo a title is putting a belt on Hornswaggle. And I am pretty sure that is how the last cruiserweight title died.

Jeez. Be a bigger mark. If workrate mattered nearly as much as promos/charisma does, John Cena would be running his own Indy shows while John Morrison would be the face of wwe. The wwe isn’t struggling to find characters the audience likes bc the guys can’t work. Top to bottom, this is by far the best in ring roster they’ve ever had. They’re struggling to build characters because guys aren’t allowed to show any unscripted charisma. But yeah, ring work matters most. That’s why lance storm and Jerry Lynn are headlining this years hall of fame class...

[Beech27]

I don't necessarily disagree with the spirit of your post--that character and narrative matters, not just athletic exhibitions--but Cena has had more great matches than Morrison, Storm, and Lynn combined. I'd suggest his matches have outpaced his promos for a decade or so, and his mic/character work is fundamentally informed by the reaction to his matches. So... I don't think that's the comparison to make, when we're (sorta? I think?) talking about Enzo.

But I mean, it's a false dichotomy anyway. Everything matters.

[Just Dave]

I don't disagree that in ring work matters. Where I vehemently disagree with kyuubi is that workrate matters more than promo ability. At the end of the day, WWE is a tv company that uses wrestling as a vessel to make and expand their stars. Enzo Amore cut a fantastic promo with his team on Raw tonight. Guy is much more than "one catchphrase" on the microphone. I think people also forget how little ring time he actually had before moving up to nXt tv and then the main roster. The mantra with him, according to his account and Big Cass's account, was everyone from HHH to Dusty Rhodes saying "just put a mic in his hand." I'm sorry that Kyuubi gets offended when a guy that consistently gets reactions is made the center of a TV show in desperate need of a star. Some of those other guys are good to great workers. Enzo Amore is a star. I'm sorry someone with a better workrate has been cast to the side so Enzo gets more screen time, but it appears to have been the right move, given the announced 205Live live shows and apparent uptick in viewership. He's not solely to credit for that, but denying he's partially responsible is just closing your eyes and covering your ears because his ring work offends your delicate sensibilities...

[MORELOCK]

You're ignoring (again) that the conversation when it began was about Tyler Bate, another talent that they were planning to at least partially build an entire brand around, not needing to be jobbed out so mercilessly to Enzo. Regardless of how good Enzo is on the mic, that was A Dumb Thing. Burying the entire Cruiser division in order to make it The Enzo Show is also not a great business plan if they're planning on trying to run 205Live-exclusive shows. There is a pressing need to get people to care about more than just one guy on the show. Flips aren't going to sell tickets.

[Just Dave]

Tyler Bate isn't regularly on WWE TV. Why would you sacrifice someone who's going to be on your show every week for someone that isn't?

[MORELOCK]

4 minutes ago, just drew said:

Tyler Bate isn't regularly on WWE TV. Why would you sacrifice someone who's going to be on your show every week for someone that isn't?

The UK Championship tournament was a vehicle to get him over, he's regularly featured on NXT, and he was to be the centerpiece of the UK show that is still supposed to be on hold rather than scrapped entirely.

Enzo pulling some of his usual shit to cheat and beat Bate would have been fine. The clean finish was an unnecessary burial - Enzo is, kayfabe-wise, not a good wrestler. Anyone losing cleanly to him is, by extension, a kayfabe bad wrestler. It's not the right decision to bury people that need protecting. No one needed to be sacrificed.

Your whole "fuck the entire division" mentality is also obsolete now that they're running 205 house shows. They need more than just Enzo to be a commodity.

[Jiji]

To be fair, Vince could change his mind and scrap 205 Live in an instant.

[Kyuubi]

11 hours ago, just drew said:

Jeez. Be a bigger mark. If workrate mattered nearly as much as promos/charisma does, John Cena would be running his own Indy shows while John Morrison would be the face of wwe. The wwe isn’t struggling to find characters the audience likes bc the guys can’t work. Top to bottom, this is by far the best in ring roster they’ve ever had. They’re struggling to build characters because guys aren’t allowed to show any unscripted charisma. But yeah, ring work matters most. That’s why lance storm and Jerry Lynn are headlining this years hall of fame class...

We are talking about Enzo Amore. Not John Cena or Jerry Lynn or Lance Storm. Tyler Bate is not either of them. And even then John Cena had to get a shit ton better in the ring before there was actual pay-off in the shit he was talking. And also, you do not see me talking about the Miz or anyone else. My beef is Enzo. Enzo has no upside at all. None what so ever. Narrative matters, but if you are selling me on the fact that Enzo can beat Tyler Bate clean...literally anybody clean, then narrative falls apart. Especially WWE creative can't even tell an extended story beyond the next week, and I am not the only one complaining about that. The fucking Big Show called out creative for lacking the foresight and preparation to go beyond the next week.

And since you want to use John Cena. What about John Cena and Randy Orton matches that had all the build up and years of character absolutely fucking tanking every time they had a match? Fans went in the match excited as hell and came out glad that it ended. Why? Because they are both bland as hell. Not terrible. Fucking bland in that ring. In the subsequent matches after? Hardly any reaction what so ever. There have been dozens of Miz vs Dolph Ziggler matches, but the best one was when they intertwined an actual story and some of Miz's best heel work in his career, but it helped that that their match was really good. It was match of the night.

Narrative does not mean shit if your narrative is Enzo Amore is actually better than....anyone on that roster. Especially since you spent nearly two years creating a narrative on the main roster that he sucks. And another year in NXT that he actually sucks. Combined that with him becoming Cruiserweight champion is burial for the Cruiserweight division because the logical extension is that the Cruiserweights suck as well. Like the overall story for the babyfaces in that division is that Enzo Amore, the guy who lost to just about everyone and was a liability to his tag team, is a force. That is burial. If Enzo was winning mostly underhanded ways, which most of the time he is, it's no problem. But Tyler Bate losing clean. No. Tyler Bate, in his home country no less, comes off like a goober. It hurts that Enzo is cheating in ways that hardly make any sense. He beat Kalisto with an eye poke and then hit his finisher. A fucking eye poke was enough to dispose Kalisto. If Enzo cheated, Eddie-style which involved smart and creative scenarios, then I wouldn't have a problem. But that meas Enzo has the creativity and wherewithal to actually pull it off, and he doesn't.

 

[RIPPA]

Drew Gulak is in charge! Wake the kids! Alert the Neighbors!