[NOV 2016] WRESTLING DISCUSSION THREAD

[Casey]

The WrestleMania pre-show is like, 2 1/2 hours long. You could easily have 3 title matches during that time. For sure though, some titles won't get defended at WrestleMania because it's just not a priority.

I see the Cruiserweight title being defended at the Takeover show the night before, personally.

[The Z]

1 hour ago, Zartan said:

At least Goldberg has some sort of passion for wrestling and isn't just collecting a paycheck like an emotionless robot. 

The guy whose career lasted a whooping eight years and repeatedly said he's only interested in coming back for one more match to show his son how cool he is? That guy's supposed to have passion for wrestling? I don't even want to know how much he got paid for Survivor Series.

[Casey]

And the running line from Meltzer seems to be that "Goldberg will keep wrestling as long as Vince pays him what he got at Survivor Series".

Honestly, I'm okay with these guys not having "passion" for wrestling. This shit is rough and ultimately, it's business. Get your money and get out, it's the smartest way to do it.

[DTTW]

1 hour ago, Stevie Ray Von Erich said:

I don't know if calling a guy who was on actual NFL rosters a football dropout (especially when Brock--whom I assume you're homering for here--only ever made a practice squad) is a good argument.

Plus, it's wrestling. Everything is believable if it's booked right.

I'm saying Goldie has extremely limited qualifications that suggest he is on Brock's level.

You're right, it can be...when it isn't contridicted by a harsh reality from a competitor who's entire business model makes your idea look stupid. And they'd market the shit outta such an actually shocking moment...which WWE can't do because we know it's scripted.

What's funny is the WWE just keeps reaching backwards to attract new fans...and sooner than later all they are going to find is their hand covered in their own shit.

[Casey]

Yeah, but we live inside the world of kayfabe. Where the notion of using a sledgehammer and not killing the other guy is treated as believable. Goldberg doesn't have extremely limited qualifications, he went on a 100 something win streak in WCW, destroying guys in ways that would make Suplex City look like Candyland. Yeah, okay, maybe Brock Lesnar the character we see on television did take a sabbatical (after being beat by Goldberg in his last match in 2004) and trained to be an MMA competitor and he knows ju-jitsu and whatnot. Does any of that matter? No, because wrestling is fake and we still live in a world of fantasy, where the most feared guy on the roster is an undead zombie and there's grown men on RAW that love unicorns and Dragonball Z and are still taken seriously.

What qualifcations did CM Punk have to be on Brock Lesnar's level and have a competitive match? Triple H? JOHN CENA? What, because these guys are/were currently active in wrestling and Goldberg hasn't been seen since 2004 so of course he's just been eating cake and watching re-runs of "2 Broke Girls"?

Come on. This is getting a little ridiculous.

[joseph2112]

I see both sides of this argument, but to me there are some realities. Would it be better for the WWE to build young guys and try to establish the future through Brock? IMO of course.  But they are most interested in the buzz and moment that the current situation has produced. Until the 70 year old walks away, I can't really see that changing. 

Here is the question I believe the WWE asks itself about every booking decision: Will this add or decrease network subscription in any way? I don't see this as a negative at all. 

[RRR]

1 hour ago, The Z said:

The guy whose career lasted a whooping eight years and repeatedly said he's only interested in coming back for one more match to show his son how cool he is? That guy's supposed to have passion for wrestling? I don't even want to know how much he got paid for Survivor Series.

Did Goldberg run over your cat or something? 

 

 

[Nice Guy Eddie]

1 hour ago, Zartan said:

Did Goldberg run over your cat or something? 

 

 

Don't fuck with a man's cats. If Goldberg ran over my remaining cat, I would fill a pillowcase with bars of soap and beat the shit out of his son.

[Matt D]

These exact two people got booed out of the building at Wrestlemania because they didn't care a lick about wrestling. There's no real argument for one over the other. Goldberg at least likes one more human being than Brock does. As for Brock, if they're not going to actually make anyone with him, I kind of wish El Torito could be the one to beat him. I'd get a kick out of that at least. 

[RIPPA]

Torito would be the best wrestler he faced this decade

[DTTW]

1 hour ago, Casey said:

Yeah, but we live inside the world of kayfabe. Where the notion of using a sledgehammer and not killing the other guy is treated as believable. Goldberg doesn't have extremely limited qualifications, he went on a 100 something win streak in WCW, destroying guys in ways that would make Suplex City look like Candyland. Yeah, okay, maybe Brock Lesnar the character we see on television did take a sabbatical (after being beat by Goldberg in his last match in 2004) and trained to be an MMA competitor and he knows ju-jitsu and whatnot. Does any of that matter? No, because wrestling is fake and we still live in a world of fantasy, where the most feared guy on the roster is an undead zombie and there's grown men on RAW that love unicorns and Dragonball Z and are still taken seriously.

What qualifcations did CM Punk have to be on Brock Lesnar's level and have a competitive match? Triple H? JOHN CENA? What, because these guys are/were currently active in wrestling and Goldberg hasn't been seen since 2004 so of course he's just been eating cake and watching re-runs of "2 Broke Girls"?

Come on. This is getting a little ridiculous.

Goldbergs streak was fake and it was over a decade ago. Brock face punched people for real and it wasn't that long ago.

They try and treat Goldie like an MMA guy, when he's not an MMA guy and that's why it's bad. Punk and co work because it's fake, they aren't selling those guys as equals to Brocks accomplishments. It works because it's in the bubble. An actor is not equal to his parts and Goldie would probably get beat by tons of guys in mma gyms coast to coast. I can be entertained by Brock pro wrestling with pro wrestlers but when he fake shoots with a pro wrestler...just doesn't do anything for me because I can't buy a lie that flagrant.

 

Hey if I could con 40k plus for working for three minutes, I'd do it too, especially if I'm aware it's all fake here and doesn't matter to anyone but a bunch of marks like us on the internet.

[Sammo~!]

How is two spears and a JACKHAMMER a fake shoot fight? That's as pro wrestling as pro wrestling gets. Goldberg and Brock are pro wrestlers, telling a pro wrestling story. Maybe Brock is a better MMA fighter, but so far Goldberg has proven to be the better pro wrestler.

[DTTW]

1 hour ago, Sammo~! said:

How is two spears and a JACKHAMMER a fake shoot fight? That's as pro wrestling as pro wrestling gets. Goldberg and Brock are pro wrestlers, telling a pro wrestling story. Maybe Brock is a better MMA fighter, but so far Goldberg has proven to be the better pro wrestler.

 

 

I hate to sound like a broken record, but the board seriously hates my guts or something. Between my phone and computer, everything keeps getting screwed up if I type for a paragraph or more it seems. Sigh.

To be brief, the short nature of their match in an era of long matches was fake shoot fight. I know it's Goldie, it's wrestling, etc, but sometimes actors take rolls for checks when they really shouldn't and that's what it felt like here. Can't blame the guys, but even in a fake fight, a 50-year-old with zero fighting experience beating a juiced guy of Brock's caliber doesn't seem believable. And ultimately, if this is the pattern, what are the fans going to think of it, and what will they think about the rest of the card who don't perform like that? I'm wondering if maybe some serious damage was done here, but it's not going to be evident for a while.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

Taz is like 5'8 but that didn't stop 6th grade me from thinking he could F Goldberg up in a shoot. Ultimately, what people loved about Goldberg was that his matches were spear, jackhammer, pin. That was his whole gimmick. Would it have been a different story here if it were Austin going over in a minute with a Thesz press and a stunner, or if Taker tombstoned him? Maybe-- but that kind of explosive, short match was never really in their characters' DNA the way it was with Goldberg. Plus

Spoiler

Heyman's promo tonight about not being taking Goldberg seriously, and Goldberg breaking Brock's ribs was fantastic, and to me, at least went a long way in justifying why we got the match we did.

 

[DTTW]

1 hour ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

Taz is like 5'8 but that didn't stop 6th grade me from thinking he could F Goldberg up in a shoot. Ultimately, what people loved about Goldberg was that his matches were spear, jackhammer, pin. That was his whole gimmick. Would it have been a different story here if it were Austin going over in a minute with a Thesz press and a stunner, or if Taker tombstoned him? Maybe-- but that kind of explosive, short match was never really in their characters' DNA the way it was with Goldberg. Plus

  Hide contents

Heyman's promo tonight about not being taking Goldberg seriously, and Goldberg breaking Brock's ribs was fantastic, and to me, at least went a long way in justifying why we got the match we did.

 

 

Yeah, just read about that promo. At least Paul tries to make the puzzle pieces fit.

[caley]

4 hours ago, DTTW said:

Goldbergs streak was fake and it was over a decade ago. Brock face punched people for real and it wasn't that long ago.

They try and treat Goldie like an MMA guy, when he's not an MMA guy and that's why it's bad. Punk and co work because it's fake, they aren't selling those guys as equals to Brocks accomplishments. It works because it's in the bubble. An actor is not equal to his parts and Goldie would probably get beat by tons of guys in mma gyms coast to coast. I can be entertained by Brock pro wrestling with pro wrestlers but when he fake shoots with a pro wrestler...just doesn't do anything for me because I can't buy a lie that flagrant.

 

Hey if I could con 40k plus for working for three minutes, I'd do it too, especially if I'm aware it's all fake here and doesn't matter to anyone but a bunch of marks like us on the internet.

By that same logic, you could argue he's not a very good MMA fighter.  His record is just 6-3 and his most recent win is tainted by a failed drug test.  And three of his losses were all first round TKOs or submissions, so, in that sense, WWE did a really good job in having a shoot-y-ish match (I still don't see it as an implied shoot, because it wasn't like he beat him with a KO or something, it was still very much a wrestling match) with Lesnar-Goldberg because Brock's shoot losses usually come quick, so Goldberg was able to surprise him and beat him in short order, the way he was defeated in MMA.

[Curt McGirt]

Dunno why they're going with broken ribs over diverticulitis. That seems like a natural. 

[JohnnyJ]

10 hours ago, DTTW said:

Can't blame the guys, but even in a fake fight, a 50-year-old with zero fighting experience beating a juiced guy of Brock's caliber doesn't seem believable. And ultimately, if this is the pattern, what are the fans going to think of it, and what will they think about the rest of the card who don't perform like that? I'm wondering if maybe some serious damage was done here, but it's not going to be evident for a while.

That's why it was such a fast match. It's only believable if he catches him off guard and dominates him quickly. As far as what the fans will think of the rest of the card, the damage is already done. In wrestling presentation is everything and only a handful of performers are presented as important. That's nothing new. 

[joseph2112]

4 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

Dunno why they're going with broken ribs over diverticulitis. That seems like a natural. 

At least they didn't go with "WWE Wellness Policy compliance".

[Just Dave]

7 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

Dunno why they're going with broken ribs over diverticulitis. That seems like a natural. 

I would bet Brock's people didn't want there to be any doubt about his health should he want to shoot fight again...

[DTTW]

3 hours ago, JohnnyJ said:

That's why it was such a fast match. It's only believable if he catches him off guard and dominates him quickly. As far as what the fans will think of the rest of the card, the damage is already done. In wrestling presentation is everything and only a handful of performers are presented as important. That's nothing new. 

As a guy who trains in mma stuff, even if you catch Brock off guard, just no against a guy with zero experience. I mean punk lasted what 2 minutes?

I wasn't  thinking in terms of importance, i was thinking timing of matches. UFC has conditioned the fans that fights are all over the board time wise. WWE has pushed long matches as a narrative for as long as I know. They ran short matches like crazy but short ME is a rarity. Now they made it into a thing. How will the fans take to this attempt at reconditioning? How will they react to 20 minute matches if short dominations dominate the top of the card? Wasn't there a Japanese fed that did something like that?

[Infinit]

I think that they've established that Goldberg's spear and jackhammer combo is murderkilldeath. Not that in the grand scheme that short main events are a "thing".

[Sammo~!]

I must have missed the part in the Mark Hunt fight where Lesnar did 12 German suplexes and finished him off with an F5.

Pro wrestling is pro wrestling. MMA is MMA. Brock is a great MMA fighter and a great pro wrestler. Goldberg is, in storyline, one of the greatest pro wrestlers to ever walk the Earth. The story they are telling is Brock underestimated an old lion and got murdered for it. Brock's weakness has always been his hubris. Remember when Brock was wrestling Hulk Hogan and was toying with him all the while Heyman was screaming at Brock "This is different Brock! He's different!" Well Goldberg was different too, except this time Brock was 14 years older and suffered a loss. It's not only believable, it's consistent with both men's presentation over the years.

[RRR]

15 hours ago, DTTW said:

I hate to sound like a broken record, but the board seriously hates my guts or something. Between my phone and computer, everything keeps getting screwed up if I type for a paragraph or more it seems. Sigh.

To be brief, the short nature of their match in an era of long matches was fake shoot fight. I know it's Goldie, it's wrestling, etc, but sometimes actors take rolls for checks when they really shouldn't and that's what it felt like here. Can't blame the guys, but even in a fake fight, a 50-year-old with zero fighting experience beating a juiced guy of Brock's caliber doesn't seem believable. And ultimately, if this is the pattern, what are the fans going to think of it, and what will they think about the rest of the card who don't perform like that? I'm wondering if maybe some serious damage was done here, but it's not going to be evident for a while.

Were you the guy from the eyada WOL days that called in and busted Bischoff's balls about logic for like 20 minutes. 

That call was great but your looking at this way to deep. 

[Technico Support]

Not a knock on anyone here in particular, but every time I see a discussion like this, my first thought is, "maybe WWE is not for you."  I mean, don't go there looking for logic, meritocracy, booking beyond 50/50, satisfying storylines, etc etc etc.  Complaining about poor logic and uncaring part timers slumming for a paycheck being pushed to the moon in WWE is like complaining about the sky being blue or a cat being an asshole.  It is in WWE's very nature to be these things and it won't change.  If you want something that's not that, you need to watch a different promotion.