goodhelmet Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I was talking to a friend the other day, they spent 4 seasons doing this series justice in every way, then spend the last season doing the series a great disservice. Part of this is the source material. The first three books were simply better than the last two. I zoomed through the first three and struggled to get through those last two even though I was invested in most of the characters. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I was talking to a friend the other day, they spent 4 seasons doing this series justice in every way, then spend the last season doing the series a great disservice. Part of this is the source material. The first three books were simply better than the last two. I zoomed through the first three and struggled to get through those last two even though I was invested in most of the characters. I'm rereadinglistening to the last two books in the combined reading order I found online to see if it makes a difference. I loved A Feast for Crows, but it is much more subtle than the first three books. The first three books establish the world and the main story of the Starks vs. Lannisters, but Feast is much more about what happens to everyone else and how they plan on fighting back. George said in an interview once that he doesn't want to write a POV for anyone who knows too much, which provides a lot of context on how you should read that book. Cersei, Jaime, and Brienne are all put in situations where the characters around them are more important than is readily apparent on the first read. If you reread it knowing where things go, it makes it more entertaining. It may be because I spent a lot of time looking at the Wiki of Ice and Fire over at Westeros.org after my first read, but I think a lot of it is brilliant writing once you realize everything that is actually going on. I think the main problem with the Feast is the same problem that a lot of people have when they start Game of Thrones, it is too detailed seemingly for no reason. Once you realize that all of those details do mean something, and figure out what they mean it is a much richer experience. When you already have to keep track of hundreds of characters, keeping track of fifty or so more is a lot to ask a reader, but once you figure it out it is great. Dance is a much harder book to get through, because it is too transitional. Tyrion and Dany are too of the more interesting characters throughout the series, but I care about Westeros way more than I care about Essos. Having to spend so much time in Essos makes me wish that Tyrion's chapters would have been in Feast, just so we didn't spend so much time there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Yeah, and the whole escapade with Penny was incredibly lame and boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSJ Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 So, has anyone else picked up on the fact that the shelf-life of Dany's husbands seems to be about two weeks? Anyway, put me in the camp of those that felt burning his daughter was out of character for Stannis. I have a completely different take on the guy than JT has. I've seen him a rather serious, joyless person who doesn't really even want to be king, but because of his over-developed sense of propriety feels it's his duty to be the king as he has the best legitimate claim to the throne of anyone not of the recently deposed dynasty. Over and over we've seen him making tough choices based on his sense of right and wrong. Yeah, he's a rigid, inflexible SOB, but that doesn't make him an unfit ruler, some might even say that's a good quality in a king. However, burning your daughter to death does make you a pretty despicable person and I just find it out of character. Worse, as awful as that makes Stannis, he's still light-years better than the Boltons. At this point, Dany breaking the wheel is sounding pretty good. The major faults I'm finding with this series all come down to people doing things that are out of character. We're asked to believe that a warrior of the caliber of Oberyon Martell forgets the most basic rule of combat, "make sure enemy is dead before getting too close". We're asked to believe that the greatest fighter the world has ever seen is going to be taken out by some untrained thugs armed with daggers when he has a longsword? Yeah, he was outnumbered, but he's demonstrated previously that being outnumbered just means he has more opponents to kill. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.T. Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Let me clarify. Shireen's sacrifice is in character with the way Stannis appears in the series, and not IMO how Stannis is portrayed in the novels. Stannis from the novels probably wouldn't have given in to Melisandre because Shireen is his only heir. Stannis from the books is still a pretty crap father though. Shireen is less his daughter and more the first line of Baretheon succession after Stannis takes the Iron Throne. Who Shireen is isn't as important to Stannis as what she represents. I honestly believe that Stannis has convinced himself that he is doing what he does for the sake of justice for the Starks and the Arryns, but it is funny how the only way he will properly be able to dispense justice for the wrongs done by the Boltons and Lannisters is by conquering Westeros and restoring the Baratheon family to the Iron Throne. Stannis from the series has drunk deep of the Azor Ahai kool-aid Melisandre has given him and he is a Baratheon to boot. His claims to the Iron Throne are by right of succession by bloodline and now also divine right of the Old Gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bink_winkleman Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 The order to kill Shireen came straight from Martin, according to the post-show interview they did for HBO. The showrunners said that they were uncomfortable with it, but it was from the man himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 The order to kill Shireen came straight from Martin, according to the post-show interview they did. The showrunners said that they were uncomfortable with it, but it was from the man himself. I read that on IGN, but it still seemed to be excecuted(no pun intended) poorly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bink_winkleman Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Oh I thought it was terribly done and the entire storyline in the North is garbage. But it does put a stop to the idea that it was purely Weiss and Benioff changing/ruining things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playa Shunna Ver 3.0 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 GRRM should stop telling these assholes how to run their show and get back to writing his fucking books. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raziel Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Considering how they'very been running their show, I prefer if both stopped at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 The Lord of Light is not the same as the Old Gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimo Necro Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 That Strong fighter guy totally sounded like Arnold though, that was awesome and wasn't in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 He did but STRONG BELWAS would've gutted him and everybody else there. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcosLoura Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Strong Belwas will always live in our dreams. Goodnight Sweet Prince (of locusts). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 We saw the episode last night. I get what they were going for with how they paced it, and it actually worked well enough for my wife, who fully expected Stannis to do it anyway and then was very satisfied with the dragon burning people. My wife, ladies and gentlemen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raziel Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 I'm less convinced that GRRM gave the order to kill Shireen and isn't just taking some of the head off D&W considering how much fan backlash there's been this season and that the internet is going to burn them alive next week. I've been thinking it over, and honestly, the only was I see Shireen getting sacrificed to the Red God is if Jon is really dead or not anywhere near it, because like hell he'd let that happen at Castle Black, and if he's alive and ended up in Winterfell with Stannis, he's sure as shit take a shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 I'm less convinced that GRRM gave the order to kill Shireen and isn't just taking some of the head off D&W considering how much fan backlash there's been this season and that the internet is going to burn them alive next week. I've been thinking it over, and honestly, the only was I see Shireen getting sacrificed to the Red God is if Jon is really dead or not anywhere near it, because like hell he'd let that happen at Castle Black, and if he's alive and ended up in Winterfell with Stannis, he's sure as shit take a shot. The only way I could see it happening in the books is if her Greyscale comes back and they need to kill her in order to not spread the disease throughout The Wall. That is the only thing that makes any sense whatsoever to me. Who knows, but the way they did it rings fase. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playa Shunna Ver 3.0 Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 I'm less convinced that GRRM gave the order to kill Shireen and isn't just taking some of the head off D&W considering how much fan backlash there's been this season and that the internet is going to burn them alive next week. I've been thinking it over, and honestly, the only was I see Shireen getting sacrificed to the Red God is if Jon is really dead or not anywhere near it, because like hell he'd let that happen at Castle Black, and if he's alive and ended up in Winterfell with Stannis, he's sure as shit take a shot. The only way I could see it happening in the books is if her Greyscale comes back and they need to kill her in order to not spread the disease throughout The Wall. That is the only thing that makes any sense whatsoever to me. Who knows, but the way they did it rings fase. That would have softened this entire story line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxB Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 If it happens in the book, I can see it being Selyse doing it (without Stannis' knowledge) to try and please Melisandre, even though Mel doesn't neccessarily want her to and may by that time be backing a different horse entirely. R'Hllor grants Stannis a great boon and he thinks it's because of him sacrificing Greyjoy King's blood, not realising it's his own blood the god is accepting. With Shireen gone, does Stannis actually have an heir now? Because it would be his younger brother Renly, who's already dead... and obviously Tommen and Myrcella are out of the succession due to not being Baratheons, so... no Baratheon family tree in TWoIaF. We don't know if Stannis had any uncles or aunties. Presumably there's a cousin somewhere though, right? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raziel Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 All that's left are Robert's many bastards and the possibility Stanislaus sires another kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 If it happens in the book, I can see it being Selyse doing it (without Stannis' knowledge) to try and please Melisandre, even though Mel doesn't neccessarily want her to and may by that time be backing a different horse entirely. R'Hllor grants Stannis a great boon and he thinks it's because of him sacrificing Greyjoy King's blood, not realising it's his own blood the god is accepting. With Shireen gone, does Stannis actually have an heir now? Because it would be his younger brother Renly, who's already dead... and obviously Tommen and Myrcella are out of the succession due to not being Baratheons, so... no Baratheon family tree in TWoIaF. We don't know if Stannis had any uncles or aunties. Presumably there's a cousin somewhere though, right? As far as I know his next of kin would be Dany, as his grandmother was a Targaryen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Well, that works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raziel Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Or Aegon, if he's legit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyWhioux Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Stannis could legitimize one of Robert's bastards in a pinch (but hilariously, doing so would put them ahead of him in line, unless he also "adopted" them as son & heir. Show Gendry pulls double duty as Gendry and Edric Storm, Robert's blueblood-on-both-sides bastard who Davos smuggled away to Parts Unknown for his own protection) It would be kinda funny to have the distant Targaryen blood tie come back into play in reverse and have Dany take over as Stannis' next of kin. I remain convinced that Jon Snow's true lineage and Save The World resume is ultimately going to trump all other claims and concerns, though. EDIT: Aegon is a work, brother. Though he might be in the mix anyway as a descendant of the Blackfyre (i.e. bastard Targaryen branch) line, since he "looks the part" so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVA Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 If it happens in the book, I can see it being Selyse doing it (without Stannis' knowledge) to try and please Melisandre, even though Mel doesn't neccessarily want her to and may by that time be backing a different horse entirely. My thoughts are along this line. It will be Selyse or Melisandre going into business for themselves without Stannis's knowledge or consent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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