Game of Thrones Maesters Thread

[piranesi]

Were the sand snakes cool in the books?  because all off-season I kept hearing about them and I was expecting three female Oberyn's and was really excited that they would be smart, and smooth, and not immoral, and slick as shit...but in the show they were just dumb thugs like everyone else.

[EVA]

Were the sand snakes cool in the books?  because all off-season I kept hearing about them and I was expecting three female Oberyn's and was really excited that they would be smart, and smooth, and not immoral, and slick as shit...but in the show they were just dumb thugs like everyone else.

They were barely in the books at all. They spent the vast majority of the last 2 books imprisoned by Doran to keep them from starting trouble. They aren't even in on the Myrcella plot in the books.

I never got the Sand Snakes hype at all.

[AxB]

The Sand Snake we've seen most of in the books is still undercover and not outed to the reader as who she actually is. But the other ones are basically liked because of everyone liking Oberyn.

[EVA]

The Sand Snake we've seen most of in the books is still undercover and not outed to the reader as who she actually is. But the other ones are basically liked because of everyone liking Oberyn.

"You know, Taz, Alleras is Sarella spelled backwards!"

[BobbyWhioux]

 

Were the sand snakes cool in the books?  because all off-season I kept hearing about them and I was expecting three female Oberyn's and was really excited that they would be smart, and smooth, and not immoral, and slick as shit...but in the show they were just dumb thugs like everyone else.

They were barely in the books at all. They spent the vast majority of the last 2 books imprisoned by Doran to keep them from starting trouble. They aren't even in on the Myrcella plot in the books.

I never got the Sand Snakes hype at all.

 

That they ended up being The Ascention of Game Of Thrones' cast (to the point where Spear Spice stopped getting lines, Whip Spice i don't think EVER got any, and even the couple they trusted Dagger/Titty Spice enough with were eye-roll bad) feels oddly fitting.

[goodhelmet]

The list of characters who are in the same place in the show as they are in the books is probably shorter: Bran, Arya, Jon, Daenerys... and that's it? 

 

Not counting all the dead ones, obviously.

 

And to be honest, with the exception of Tyrion, these are the only ones that really matter. 

[BobbyWhioux]

The list of characters who are in the same place in the show as they are in the books is probably shorter: Bran, Arya, Jon, Daenerys... and that's it? 

 

Not counting all the dead ones, obviously.

 

Cersei

 

I'm also inclined to count Theon; Theon's about as close to his book point as is still show-possible, and while I don't quite put him on the same Main Eventer teir as those 4 (plus Tyrion) I think he's going to turn out to be Really Important, too.

[EVA]

Don't forget the utter lack of awesome Ironborn stuff that was dropped because... um.... apparently they're not important.

  

I thought the casting ads point to them playing a major part next season.

One of the roles definitely points to Euron. Nothing for Victarion or the Damphair, though. Which is fine, I guess. I think the Damphair is kind of interesting, but Victarion is a pretty redundant character, and the story wouldn't lose anything without him.

I would bet they're going to streamline the Kingsmoot and sub in Theon for somebody. Maybe take it all the way down to a Theon vs. Euron thing.

[BobbyWhioux]

When Jaime blocked that sword with his metal hand, I wrote off Victarion ever appearing in the show.

 

I suppose there's a chance Damphair might be there to referee a Euron vs Yara Kingsmoot Part One.  But then, Yara has already tried to (and given up on) finding/saving her little brother prior to the moot [reverse order of events from Asha], so it'd be come off as weird to have her go after him again.  It'd seem like he'd have to find her first, somehow [and now Stannis won't be bringing them together]. 

 

Really don't have a good guess how they're going to do this.

[Jingus]

I'm also inclined to count Theon; Theon's about as close to his book point as is still show-possible, and while I don't quite put him on the same Main Eventer teir as those 4 (plus Tyrion) I think he's going to turn out to be Really Important, too.

Nah, they changed him too. In the books, Theon escapes Winterfell with Fake Arya only to be captured by Stannis, along with his sister Asha. Clearly that ain't gonna happen in the show.

And frankly, I'm glad that the Ironborn have been so heavily edited out of the TV version. In a whole continent full of arrogant bloodthirsty psychopaths, the Ironborn are perhaps the very worst of all. They're actually proud of being parasites who don't contribute a single damn thing thing to society ("We do not sow!") and stealing everything they have from other people. They have the lamest of all the gods, who doesn't seem to give them any magic powers at all, but they're still fanatically obsessed with his useless soggy ass. And they can't even get things done; except for a few raids here and there (half of which promptly turn to shit), they don't accomplish anything except sitting on their stupid islands and constantly whining about how awesome they are. Hell, their patriarch even gets the most pitiful "shocking death" in the series, dying offscreen (offpage?) in what might have been a total accident for all we know. Seriously, these chumps were a BIG part of why I disliked A Feast for Crows so much more than all the other books; and the show has proved that you barely even need to include any of them except Asha in the overall story. Fuck the Ironborn.

[elizium]

I just......

 

 

Jingus, no.

[Jiji]

I'm also inclined to count Theon; Theon's about as close to his book point as is still show-possible, and while I don't quite put him on the same Main Eventer teir as those 4 (plus Tyrion) I think he's going to turn out to be Really Important, too.

Nah, they changed him too. In the books, Theon escapes Winterfell with Fake Arya only to be captured by Stannis, along with his sister Asha. Clearly that ain't gonna happen in the show.

And frankly, I'm glad that the Ironborn have been so heavily edited out of the TV version. In a whole continent full of arrogant bloodthirsty psychopaths, the Ironborn are perhaps the very worst of all. They're actually proud of being parasites who don't contribute a single damn thing thing to society ("We do not sow!") and stealing everything they have from other people. They have the lamest of all the gods, who doesn't seem to give them any magic powers at all, but they're still fanatically obsessed with his useless soggy ass. And they can't even get things done; except for a few raids here and there (half of which promptly turn to shit), they don't accomplish anything except sitting on their stupid islands and constantly whining about how awesome they are. Hell, their patriarch even gets the most pitiful "shocking death" in the series, dying offscreen (offpage?) in what might have been a total accident for all we know. Seriously, these chumps were a BIG part of why I disliked A Feast for Crows so much more than all the other books; and the show has proved that you barely even need to include any of them except Asha in the overall story. Fuck the Ironborn.

The Lady Melisandre and the Red God do not play games.

[Jingus]

Sure they do, on the show they just finished a rousing game of "obliterate Stannis and his entire family and army for no good reason". If that was part of Melisandre's plan, what the hell is her exit strategy? I don't see her being able to enchant Tormund and the Wildlings into doing whatever she wants, and she's got fuck-all else for other options.

But really, the sheer fact that the Greyjoys have been completely cut right out of the TV storylines shows just how pointless they are. Balon tripped and fell to his death like a schmuck, Aeron has disappeared and might be dead too. The rest of them idiotically refuse to just accept Asha as their leader, instead choosing Euron, who is a total fucking madman with questionable judgment and zero discipline. The Greyjoys are such losers that they were treated like prison bitches by the rest of Westeros; the Baratheons and Starks spanked them during the attempted rebellion, and all of their recent conquests were promptly yanked out from under them by the Boltons. Hell, even their most prized artifact, the Dragon Horn, is a useless piece of shit that does nothing but kill whoever blows it. Despite wasting our time with chapter after endless chapter of their petty savage bullshit in A Feast for Crows, the show has come right out and said "nah, none of that really matters" by simply skipping right over it. They're a bunch of dumb psychotic wankers who never accomplish anything.

[MarcosLoura]

I hate you Jingus.

[J.T.]

In retrospect, the more I think about the whole Dorne sub-plot the more it bothers me.  The whole premise revolved around Elia Martell avenging Oberyn's death by getting some getback against the Lannisters..

 

1. It wasn't a Lannister that killed Oberyn (at least not directly); it was The Mountain.  If the Sand Snakes are such awesome assassins, why not send the ladies to infiltrate King's Landing and kill The Mountain while he was (allegedly) convalescing from the wounds he received during the trial by combat?

 

2. Oberyn WANTED to fight the Mountain.   No one forced him to fight Gregor Clegane.

 

3. Tywin gave the order to have Oberyn's sister raped and killed.  Tyrion killed Tywin.   The Martell's were already avenged by a Lannister of all people.

 

4. Why kill Myrcella? To hurt Cersei?  The only thing Cersei is really guilty of is being a gloating asshole.  The man who masterminded the whole thing got murdered in the shitter by his own son and the man who actually got his hands dirty is laid up somewhere recovering from injury.  Why not find out where The Mountain is held up and send the Spice Snakes kill him while he is weak?  It can't a matter of honor.  The Martells use poison at the drop of a hat.  ON KIDS~!

[Craig H]

Cersei was the one who brought in the Mountain. 

[J.T.]

Cersei was the one who brought in the Mountain. 

 

That was a dumb move on Cersei's part.  She picked the Mountain because she figured (correctly) that the Mountain's rep would prevent anyone from defending Tyrion and then she almost cost the Lannisters one of their best battle commanders when Oberyn nearly pulled off the upset win.

 

That's the sort of blunt object plan that Cersei is good for.  If she were crafty, she'd have chosen Loras Tyrell as her champion to stick it to Margery and Tyrion at the same time. 

 

Even so, Oberyn wanted to fight Clegane and as we saw in the season finale, vow of silence big dude new member of the Kings Guard is most likely the surviving Gregor Clegane.  There is the guy you want to avenge yourself on, but you've lost the opportunity now that he's healthy again.

[BobbyWhioux]

And that's not even touching on how now Trystane Martell is in prime position to suffer some vengeance for the vengeance.

 

And how, should he survive said vengeance, might be of a mind for some vengeance of his own on the lady who murdered his fiance who he seemed to love very much and, as Doran's son, will be in a position to pursue said vengeance quite easily.

[Raziel]

 

Cersei was the one who brought in the Mountain. 

 

Even so, Oberyn wanted to fight Clegane.

 

Oberyn wouldn't have taken the fight if Cersei didn't call in Clegane right away.  Tyrion was banking on at least Bronn to take another fight for him, which would give him a better shot at living than a trial would.  Tywin headed Bronn off by tossing a Lordship at him, and a wife, then Cersei cut anyone else being a hero for Tyrion off by recalling Clegane.  Oberyn volunteerd for the fight almost right after Cersei named the Mountain.  

[BobbyWhioux]

 

Cersei was the one who brought in the Mountain. 

 

Even so, Oberyn wanted to fight Clegane and as we saw in the season finale, vow of silence big dude new member of the Kings Guard is most likely the surviving Gregor Clegane.  There is the guy you want to avenge yourself on, but you've lost the opportunity now that he's healthy again.

 

 

By the way, regardless of everything else I love how, in the person of The Mountain, a mainstream-popular TV show is totally doing its own version of the "Loser Leaves Town Comes Back Under A Mask, Is Obvious" gimmick.  Was one of my favorite parts of the corresponding book and actually getting to see it just makes me pleased all over again.

[J.T.]

 

 

Cersei was the one who brought in the Mountain. 

 

Even so, Oberyn wanted to fight Clegane.

 

Oberyn wouldn't have taken the fight if Cersei didn't call in Clegane right away.  Tyrion was banking on at least Bronn to take another fight for him, which would give him a better shot at living than a trial would.  Tywin headed Bronn off by tossing a Lordship at him, and a wife, then Cersei cut anyone else being a hero for Tyrion off by recalling Clegane.  Oberyn volunteerd for the fight almost right after Cersei named the Mountain.  

 

I can dig it if you are suggesting that Tywin was setting Tyrion up for failure and a guaranteed death sentence and that Cersei's arrogance fucked the plan up by picking the Mountain just to show off.

 

Still, if you are a petty asshole like Cersei why not pick Loras Tyrell as your champion?  Not only do you stick it to your brother when Loras wins (the kid is damned good with a sword), but you also stick it to Margery if Loras dies of his wounds after his victory (and you make sure he does by poisoning his ass).

 

And challengers would come out of the woodwork to fight Loras and build a rep as the guy who killed the dude that beat The Mountain in a tournament.

 

You might actually impress the Martells if Loras dies since there was a lot of heat between the Martell and Tyrell families at that point in the story.

 

I guess the easy answer is "Something that elaborate would depend on Cersei actually being smart and clever."

[Jingus]

Why are so many people assuming Clegane isn't dead? Because he totally is. In the book, the Lannisters actually sent the Martells his head as a trophy to keep. That's Clegane's body as the new Kingsguard member alright, but it's been reanimated by Qyburn's forbidden necromancy. The other Kingsguard members whisper that the new guy never takes off his armor or helmet (and apparently you can't see his eyes or face at all in it, unlike the show's version), never speaks, never sleeps, never eats or drinks or goes to the bathroom. Qyburn found some way to make a wight out of the body, but Clegane himself is definitely dead dead dead.

[J.T.]

Why are so many people assuming Clegane isn't dead? Because he totally is. In the book.

 

I stopped reading here, man.   As you've already said, there is a ton stuff happening in the series that never happened in the books.

 

That was most definitely Gregor under the sheet in Qyburn's lab.  Whether or not he was a live or dead test subject for Qyburn's experiments is a matter of conjecture.

 

If Gregor was confirmed dead in the show, I didn't hear it.

[Raziel]

 

 

 

Cersei was the one who brought in the Mountain. 

 

Even so, Oberyn wanted to fight Clegane.

 

Oberyn wouldn't have taken the fight if Cersei didn't call in Clegane right away.  Tyrion was banking on at least Bronn to take another fight for him, which would give him a better shot at living than a trial would.  Tywin headed Bronn off by tossing a Lordship at him, and a wife, then Cersei cut anyone else being a hero for Tyrion off by recalling Clegane.  Oberyn volunteerd for the fight almost right after Cersei named the Mountain.  

 

I can dig it if you are suggesting that Tywin was setting Tyrion up for failure and a guaranteed death sentence and that Cersei's arrogance fucked the plan up by picking the Mountain just to show off.

 

Still, if you are a petty asshole like Cersei why not pick Loras Tyrell as your champion?  Not only do you stick it to your brother when Loras wins (the kid is damned good with a sword), but you also stick it to Margery if Loras dies of his wounds after his victory (and you make sure he does by poisoning his ass).

 

And challengers would come out of the woodwork to fight Loras and build a rep as the guy who killed the dude that beat The Mountain in a tournament.

 

You might actually impress the Martells if Loras dies since there was a lot of heat between the Martell and Tyrell families at that point in the story.

 

I guess the easy answer is "Something that elaborate would depend on Cersei actually being smart and clever."

 

Because that would require Cersei being smart and clever.  She's hated Tyrion since birth, she's wanted him dead, she's convinced that Tyrion killed Joffery, and no one can tell her otherwise.  Tyrion asked for Trial by Combat, Cersei wasn't gambling with a plan to get rid of Loras, she wanted the Imp DEAD.  Leave no room for error.

[J.T.]

Because that would require Cersei being smart and clever.  She's hated Tyrion since birth, she's wanted him dead, she's convinced that Tyrion killed Joffery, and no one can tell her otherwise.  Tyrion asked for Trial by Combat, Cersei wasn't gambling with a plan to get rid of Loras, she wanted the Imp DEAD.  Leave no room for error.

 

But there is tons of potential for error there even if you think you are playing with house money on solid odds.  Oberyn almost won and had he managed to beat The Mountain, your best field commander is dead and the person who you believe murdered your son gets to walk. 

 

Cersei lucked out because Gregor was fucking metal and GRRM likes pissing off his readers.

 

Besides, it doesn't really matter what Cersei wanted.  Tywin was the Lannister that counted most.  He knew that King's Landing was better off with Joffrey off of the throne but fake justice needed to be done and Tyrion's influence needed to be purged, so the Imp got trumped up on charges and sentenced to death for treason.  Tywin gets Tommen on the throne (a king he can groom himself) and Tyrion gets executed.... or not.