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[OCT 2016] WRESTLING DISCUSSION THREAD


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1 hour ago, Fallacy! said:

Bruce Prichard says in his latest podcast that Triple H volunteered to go work for ECW several times during the talent exchange the two companies had in 96/97.

All this news does is fuel my teenage ECW fanboy conspiracy theory that "The Game" character was a complete ripoff of "The Franchise."

Right but it's Prichard's podcast.  Anything that's 1) contrary to anything you've ever heard before and 2) very complimentary to WWE is an absolute fabrication.  He swears Mania 7 was moved due ton security concerns, WWE had Meltzer on the payroll to report nice things about them, and that all WWE attendance figures are 100% accurate.  When called on anything, his only defense is "were YOU in the room?"  It's fun to hear Conrad outright call him on his bullshit, though.

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7 hours ago, Technico Support said:

Meltzer had an anecdote on the last show about how Vince didn't make a play for Sting earlier because he just didn't think Sting was a big deal.  The point was the Vince simply could not comprehend that anyone (and this also relates to Goldberg) could be that over without ever being in WWE.  Can you imagine the sheer level of self-delusion necessary for that kind of mindset?  Like it just did not compute in Vince's head that, if someone was not in WWE/F, he could still be huge and popular with the fans.  It's amazing.

I always thought it was just a  line when Vince said WCW beat them for so long only because they hired ex WWE guys.  But holy shit, Vince really believes that.  Damn.

Not defending Vince being that delusional to think the WCW guys weren't over, but having said all this: I'd still be more indignant against Vince for thinking this way on Meltzer's reports if Dave Meltzer himself uses similar arguments to why Vince couldn't comprehend Sting/Goldberg being that over without a WWE run to claim Sting isn't good enough to be in the Observer Hall of Fame.

Really, it's one or the other: Either Vince McMahon has a point Sting wasn't a "big deal" enough to make a play for him earlier, or Meltzer doesn't have a leg to stand on when you say "Sting wasn't enough of a big deal to merit an Observer Hall of Fame spot".

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8 hours ago, Technico Support said:

Meltzer had an anecdote on the last show about how Vince didn't make a play for Sting earlier because he just didn't think Sting was a big deal.  The point was the Vince simply could not comprehend that anyone (and this also relates to Goldberg) could be that over without ever being in WWE.  Can you imagine the sheer level of self-delusion necessary for that kind of mindset?  Like it just did not compute in Vince's head that, if someone was not in WWE/F, he could still be huge and popular with the fans.  It's amazing.

I always thought it was just a  line when Vince said WCW beat them for so long only because they hired ex WWE guys.  But holy shit, Vince really believes that.  Damn.

He was right.  Without the NWO being ex-WWE guys WCW never gets the nationwide attention they received.

Oddly enough, the WWE comeback was cemented by the mid-card guys WCW either let go or cast aside.  Jericho, Foley, Austin, etc.

Hogan would never let guys like Foley, Jericho, and Austin get over him.  Never.  

The history of WCW is such bittersweet irony since the guys cast aside were ultimately the ones responsible for their demise.

 

That night was the first time the WWE reclaimed the Monday Night title in how many weeks never again relinquishing that honor.

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Can you make Godzilla stomp on Suplex City in this new WWE game?  Cause that's like the only thing I want to see involving Brock Lesnar nowadays.

Give me Goldberg vs. Rusev.  Or Styles.  Or The Big Dog.  Fuck a Bork vs. Oldberg match.

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1 hour ago, Technico Support said:

Right but it's Prichard's podcast.  Anything that's 1) contrary to anything you've ever heard before and 2) very complimentary to WWE is an absolute fabrication.  He swears Mania 7 was moved due ton security concerns, WWE had Meltzer on the payroll to report nice things about them, and that all WWE attendance figures are 100% accurate.  When called on anything, his only defense is "were YOU in the room?"  It's fun to hear Conrad outright call him on his bullshit, though.

Corny went pretty hard on Prichard RE: Meltzer on this week's podcast.

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I remember when it was announced that Diesel and Razor were going back to WCW, loads of internet wrestling analysts of the time were saying it was a waste of WCW's money, because Vinnie Vegas and the Diamond Studd did nothing to move business the first time. So therefore they'd just bomb out again and nobody would care about any of it.

Most of the same people also thought that Bret jumping after Montreal would seal WCW as the MNW winner and kill off the WWF for good.

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2 hours ago, evilwaldo said:

He was right.  Without the NWO being ex-WWE guys WCW never gets the nationwide attention they received.

Oddly enough, the WWE comeback was cemented by the mid-card guys WCW either let go or cast aside.  Jericho, Foley, Austin, etc.

Hogan would never let guys like Foley, Jericho, and Austin get over him.  Never.  

The history of WCW is such bittersweet irony since the guys cast aside were ultimately the ones responsible for their demise.

 

That night was the first time the WWE reclaimed the Monday Night title in how many weeks never again relinquishing that honor.

Actually the WWF came back a while before that. I was at the Raw in Philly in April '98 when they broke Nitro's win streak. The main event was Austin with one hand tied behind his back vs. Vince, and once Austin's hand was tied Mankind came out and beat him down. Also, Al Snow debuted with his ECW gimmick.

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You know how the Basketball Hall of Fame has inducted journalists before? Any chance the WWE HoF ever inducts the greatest Pro-Wrestling journalist ever? Y'know, Bill Apter?

Or possibly that Meltzer bloke... who is in the one of the other HoF's , and can't rightly induct himself into his own HoF (if he ever passes the torch (Not The Torch Newsletter, the metaphorical torch) or when he eventually passes away, his replacement (if there is one) would induct him into that one right away). Because whilst I could see Vince vetoing something like that, the McMahon-Helmsley fact-gime seems a lot less closed minded about that sort of thing.

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3 hours ago, evilwaldo said:

That night was the first time the WWE reclaimed the Monday Night title in how many weeks never again relinquishing that honor.

Not true, don't fall for the WWE narrative. WCW had already been losing the ratings war weekly starting late 1998.

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Could someone kindly tell Bret Hart that the Freebirds were one of the biggest draws in the history of the business at their peak in Mid South and World Class? But yeah Demolition are more worthy of being HOF'ers. Riiiiiiiiiiight.

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10 hours ago, evilwaldo said:

The history of WCW is such bittersweet irony since the guys cast aside were ultimately the ones responsible for their demise.

 

Oh please. The ultimately negative impact of Hogan did way more damage than the midgets jumping ship. The coffin was already shut by then, they were just nails helping keep it closed. Christ Hogan running rampant has been responsible for what, 3 promotions, folding. 

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The initial angle of Hall & Nash in WCW was as The Outsiders, entirely built upon the perception of them as "still" WWF guys. It started as an invasion angle, not just a heel stable (or faction, as thee kids say now). I agree with many of the posters above - it had to be these two, and it was handled perfectly, even including the Hogan reveal but than it quickly spiraled down, booking- and backstage-wise. The idea of keeping Hogan and the other big players away from legit challengers to get heel heat quickly became an excuse for laziness and getting over as "cool".

- RAF

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7 hours ago, BEN! said:

Can you make Godzilla stomp on Suplex City in this new WWE game?  Cause that's like the only thing I want to see involving Brock Lesnar nowadays.

Give me Goldberg vs. Rusev.  Or Styles.  Or The Big Dog.  Fuck a Bork vs. Oldberg match.

Go to Japan, hire the production people to created a Suplex City Kaijū set then have this mofo wreck it with the prerequisite CFO$ remix:

 

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11 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

Really, it's one or the other: Either Vince McMahon has a point Sting wasn't a "big deal" enough to make a play for him earlier, or Meltzer doesn't have a leg to stand on when you say "Sting wasn't enough of a big deal to merit an Observer Hall of Fame spot".

Dave said and this is pretty much word for word that Sting would have been worth way more to WWE than the $500,000 TNA was paying him and Vince didn't understand that Sting was a big deal some 15 years after WCW closed.

How can Dave say something like that but then claim Sting doesn't belong in the hall of fame? 

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Da Meltz reported on his audio show last night that WWE is thinking about restructuring the Network into 4 tiers (free, $4.99, $9.99 and $14.99). One of the options would be to vote for the HOF, and watching content from promotions like TNA... and ROH?

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I think that the nWo thing worked so well with Hogan because he was THE guy for Vince for so long.

It made sense for him to say "Ive got my boys down from NYC to help sort this place out" but the issue was they then had every man and his dog join the nWo and it just wasnt the same. Luger, Giant and Savage shouldnt have been anywhere near joining that group and Sting sure as hell should have never joined.

With Bret Hart, I think I remember Bischoff saying in an interview that they dropped the ball big time. They assumed he was going to be a mega star because of the screw job and didnt put any serious work into his booking. He was an afterthought because he was going to be naturally over.

Finally - What is Hulk Hogan's best match? Im watching Rocky 3 and this Thunderlips heel squash in fantastic.

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Bischoff didn't really say that. Hart was brought in to 1) Take him from Vince , 2) Pad out the roster because they were adding Thunder.

There seemed to be some problems caused by the fact that 1) Bret Hart turned up 'late' to tapings, 2) Bret Hart didn't like Bischoff's management style, and 3) Bret Hart was clearly psychologically affected by the Montreal Screw Job. But Bret Hart did actually have a good heel run against guys like Booker T and DDP, which may not be what people expected, but it is pretty much the function he was brought in to serve. I certainly wouldn't have pushed him as a babyface above Sting or Goldberg at that point, and expecting him to replace Hogan as the top heel isn't that realistic - I will admit to being curious about what heel Bret vs face Hogan would have been like, though I'm not overly convinced we had a bunch of classics stolen from us.

Basically the whole 'Bret Hart was under-utilized in WCW' thing is more or less completely wrong.

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6 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

If Scott Hall comes into WCW and he's doing a Scarface gimmick and Nash is doing a tweener/cool heel deal and they are both singles wrestlers I think it helps WCW but probably doesn't really move the needle much.

Wasn't WWF doing shit business with those guys at the top of their cards? So yeah WCW deserves credit for taking them and making them bigger stars than Vince ever did. They also proved Vince wrong about Hogan being old news as he helped create a second wresting boom with his heel turn. Vince had the right idea, but may have jumped the gun by a few years.

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Does anyone remember a WWF tag team called the Ring Lords? I saw them only once in a squash in the mid-nineties. They had red facepaint and I believe both of them had long black hair. I've never seen them again, nor heard of them, since, and I can't find any information on them at all. It struck me as strange that you'd have a team with an actual name and some colourful gimmick (or at least facepaint), but they were only shown once.

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2 hours ago, Sin Carne said:

Bischoff didn't really say that. Hart was brought in to 1) Take him from Vince , 2) Pad out the roster because they were adding Thunder.

There seemed to be some problems caused by the fact that 1) Bret Hart turned up 'late' to tapings, 2) Bret Hart didn't like Bischoff's management style, and 3) Bret Hart was clearly psychologically affected by the Montreal Screw Job. But Bret Hart did actually have a good heel run against guys like Booker T and DDP, which may not be what people expected, but it is pretty much the function he was brought in to serve. I certainly wouldn't have pushed him as a babyface above Sting or Goldberg at that point, and expecting him to replace Hogan as the top heel isn't that realistic - I will admit to being curious about what heel Bret vs face Hogan would have been like, though I'm not overly convinced we had a bunch of classics stolen from us.

Basically the whole 'Bret Hart was under-utilized in WCW' thing is more or less completely wrong.

 

If Bret had done an assessment of the situation with WCW BEFORE signing then he would've seen that there was honestly no place for him in the upper card in WCW.  Either way, he won the World Title within 2 years of signing and would've likely had a strong 2000 if he hadn't gotten kicked in the head. It's an unfortunate situation.

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