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6 minutes ago, Infinit said:

Steve Smith better not find out that you don't think he's first ballot lol

As good as he was, if vote for Andre Johnson and Devin Hester (as a returner) over him. So,  if I get sucker punched in the next few minutes, I guess I'll have it coming. 

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19 hours ago, supremebve said:

As good as he was, if vote for Andre Johnson and Devin Hester (as a returner) over him. So,  if I get sucker punched in the next few minutes, I guess I'll have it coming. 

I'd take Andre over Smith, too, but I just can't see Hester as a HOFer.

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21 minutes ago, Tabe said:

I'd take Andre over Smith, too, but I just can't see Hester as a HOFer.

Hester is tricky,  because there have been plenty of great returners who haven't been inducted,  but he was the absolute best weapon on a team that went to the Super Bowl and no other returner can say that.  

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1 hour ago, supremebve said:

Hester is tricky,  because there have been plenty of great returners who haven't been inducted,  but he was the absolute best weapon on a team that went to the Super Bowl and no other returner can say that.  

I don't know if any other returner can say that or not but he definitely was the best weapon on that Bears team.

That said, let's be brutally honest - guys are kick returners because they aren't good enough to play full-time elsewhere.  In Hester's case, his KR numbers are nothing special (he's basically Mel Gray with 125 fewer returns).  He had a couple amazing PR years, no disagreement there.  So we're basically putting him in as a PR?  Ehhh.  I get the "it's a real position and the best deserve to be recognized" argument but...

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1 hour ago, Tabe said:

I don't know if any other returner can say that or not but he definitely was the best weapon on that Bears team.

That said, let's be brutally honest - guys are kick returners because they aren't good enough to play full-time elsewhere.  In Hester's case, his KR numbers are nothing special (he's basically Mel Gray with 125 fewer returns).  He had a couple amazing PR years, no disagreement there.  So we're basically putting him in as a PR?  Ehhh.  I get the "it's a real position and the best deserve to be recognized" argument but...

I agree with the fact that returners are returners, because they can't do anything else,  but that doesn't mean it isn't an extremely valuable skill. There aren't many who I'd say are even worth discussing, but Hester, Brian Mitchell, Mel Gray,  and Eric Metcalf are all with at least a mention.

Eric Metcalf is someone is love to see in the current NFL. He could have been a Marshall Faulk type weapon if NFL offenses understood how to maximize his talent. 

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Devin Hester is the only dude in my life, where for like two - three years I could say, "Man we're losing, Devin needs to return one to get this going." And he'd do it.

No one should ever hang their hat on the idea of Punt or Kickoff return being what gets them back in the game. That's stupid. But not when he played. He created that expectation that not only could it be done. He was going to do it next. And when teams got wise they gave us hilariously short fields just trying to avoid it from happening. I don't know if that part is on any kind of stat sheet though.

I don't know if that should make him a hall of famer but he's a goddamn legend to me.

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48 minutes ago, supremebve said:

I agree with the fact that returners are returners, because they can't do anything else,  but that doesn't mean it isn't an extremely valuable skill. There aren't many who I'd say are even worth discussing, but Hester, Brian Mitchell, Mel Gray,  and Eric Metcalf are all with at least a mention.

It's not an "extremely" valuable skill.  The league leaders every year average 2-3 punt returns a game.  Nobody that touches the ball that infrequently is "extremely" valuable.  And kick returns aren't that much more common.  

And, let's be honest, the real valuable skill when it comes to punt returns is not muffing them and not returning ones you shouldn't be returning.

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45 minutes ago, jaedmc said:

Devin Hester is the only dude in my life, where for like two - three years I could say, "Man we're losing, Devin needs to return one to get this going." And he'd do it.

No one should ever hang their hat on the idea of Punt or Kickoff return being what gets them back in the game. That's stupid. But not when he played. He created that expectation that not only could it be done. He was going to do it next. And when teams got wise they gave us hilariously short fields just trying to avoid it from happening. I don't know if that part is on any kind of stat sheet though.

I don't know if that should make him a hall of famer but he's a goddamn legend to me.

Basically all of this.

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15 minutes ago, Tabe said:

It's not an "extremely" valuable skill.  The league leaders every year average 2-3 punt returns a game.  Nobody that touches the ball that infrequently is "extremely" valuable.  And kick returns aren't that much more common.  

And, let's be honest, the real valuable skill when it comes to punt returns is not muffing them and not returning ones you shouldn't be returning.

I disagree that it isn't extremely valuable. Scoring points is the entire object of the game. Your point that is valuable not to muff punts is valid,  except not muffing a punt is the bare minimum expectation. Being able to turn a punt into 6 points is the maximum expectation. Having someone who is a risk to score every time your opponent punts makes a huge difference,  when the best most people can expect is to hopefully not turn the ball over. The more ways you can score the better off you are, and scoring without your offense on the field is a massive advantage. That Bears team that made the Super Bowl was below average on offense,  Hester's ability to put 6 points on the board bailed them out multiple times and that doesn't even account for when teams gave up field position punting the ball out of bounds. If you can score 5 non-offensive TDs a year, and your offense plays on consistently shorter fields, I have to imagine your win percentage goes up exponentially.

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16 minutes ago, supremebve said:

I disagree that it isn't extremely valuable. Scoring points is the entire object of the game. Your point that is valuable not to muff punts is valid,  except not muffing a punt is the bare minimum expectation. Being able to turn a punt into 6 points is the maximum expectation. Having someone who is a risk to score every time your opponent punts makes a huge difference,  when the best most people can expect is to hopefully not turn the ball over. The more ways you can score the better off you are, and scoring without your offense on the field is a massive advantage. That Bears team that made the Super Bowl was below average on offense,  Hester's ability to put 6 points on the board bailed them out multiple times and that doesn't even account for when teams gave up field position punting the ball out of bounds. If you can score 5 non-offensive TDs a year, and your offense plays on consistently shorter fields, I have to imagine your win percentage goes up exponentially.

Let's take that rookie season where they went to the Super Bowl.  Yep, he scored 5 TDs that year.  That's awesome, no doubt.  But "consistently shorter fields"?  No, not really.  He averaged 4 yards a return more than the guy ranked 20th in the league for punts.  And 4 yards more than the guy ranked 24th for kick returns.  That's.......nothing.  In fact, if you take away Hester's TDs his rookie year, he averaged way under 20 yards (18.78) a return on kickoffs, which is horrible.  To be fair, those 2 TDs were in one game and were the difference for the Bears in beating St. Louis.

End of the day, Hester was really good at his job, I just don't think it's Hall-worthy.

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So, this conversation got me looking for statistical backup and fell down the NFL statistical rabbit hole.  I found an interesting tidbit for Adjusted Points Per Drive, and found this gem.

Quote

At the bottom of the pile we find the 2006 Raiders, “led” by the immortal Andrew Walter (and also Randy Moss, which means he was on the best and worst offenses in modern history!). You know things are dire when JaMarcus Russell’s teams looks good in comparison. But my biggest takeaway from the cellar dwellers is the stunningly consistent ineptitude of the Chicago Bears offenses through the years. Da Bears only cleared league average AjPPD in two of the 19 seasons measured, highlighted by a ghastly 0.84 AjPPD in 2004. As bad as their offenses have been by conventional standards, their true performance has actually been far worse. Chicago has generally been near the top in drive opportunities, including four seasons with 200+ drives. Unbelievably, the Bears have also benefited from the best field position in the league, yet still haven’t been able to score with any regularity. In 2007, Chicago led the league in drives and starting field position (thanks, Devin Hester!), but only mustered the 23rd highest point total. In this era of constant roster turnover, it’s almost incomprehensible that a specific unit could remain that terrible for almost 20 years. At least Chicago has Cleveland to keep them company in the dark basement of offensive futility; the Browns have also put together only two above average offenses since 1997, but they win the tiebreaker by virtue of not existing for two of those seasons.

The Bears of that era, more than any other team, needed a player like Devin Hester to help them with their historically inept offenses.  It's incredibly hard to find evidence of how important special teams and field position is when the offenses are this fucking putrid.  I looked through a couple years and the Bears, were consistently in the top-5 of average starting field position, but how important that is to a bad offense is debatable.  

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That backs up what we as football fans already knew to be true - that Chicago has been clueless on offense for 3 generations of Playstations or more.  But, if they're leading in drives AND field position, that tells me they have great defenses more than great special teams (though Hester was obviously really good in this era).

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3 minutes ago, Tabe said:

That backs up what we as football fans already knew to be true - that Chicago has been clueless on offense for 3 generations of Playstations or more.  But, if they're leading in drives AND field position, that tells me they have great defenses more than great special teams (though Hester was obviously really good in this era).

Jae can back me up on this. The Bears have been utterly disappointing and downright frustrating every year after 1986. I can't recall a single time I looked at that team and felt hopeful for the next year aside from a fleeting thought of, well, I hope they're good next year or I hope they don't suck. 

People make fun of the Raiders for all of their ineptness, and rightly so, but I'd argue that the Bears have been even more of a laughing stock. They just never had someone as insane as Al Davis running the team.

I forget what year it was. It was some time after their Super Bowl appearance in 2007. The team had a good defense, which isn't unusual for them, but the offense couldn't score over 30 points. It was insane. Maybe those were the Kyle Orton years or something. Or that one QB from Ohio State. 

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As a Browns fan,  I understand quarterback ineptitude, but Bernie Kosar, Vinny Testaverde, and Baker Mayfield are better than any Bears quarterback in my lifetime.  Having the Bears quarterback history is one of those things that is harder than it looks. Not hitting on a single quarterback,  even by accident since 1950 is probably statistically harder than drafting a hall of famer.

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8 minutes ago, supremebve said:

As a Browns fan,  I understand quarterback ineptitude, but Bernie Kosar, Vinny Testaverde, and Baker Mayfield are better than any Bears quarterback in my lifetime.  Having the Bears quarterback history is one of those things that is harder than it looks. Not hitting on a single quarterback,  even by accident since 1950 is probably statistically harder than drafting a hall of famer.

Justin Fields is probably the best QB they've drafted in my lifetime and who knows how good he'll actually be.

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Jay Cutler isn't just the best Bears QB in modern NFL history, he's undebatably the best by a wide margin. 

Anyway, Hester is probably the best punt returner ever, and had the "Barry Sanders Most Exciting Player in the NFL" title for a few years. I have no idea if that's Hall of Fame worthy or not, but he was damn cool.

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Now I want to go on a Lee Ellia level obscene tirade on what absolute bullshit it is that neither Ken Anderson or Ken Riley are in the hall and how I hope Paul Brown's ghost haunts all of the stupid bastards who failed to put them in.

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File under D for Dumbass.

Get caught missing multiple drug tests, attempt to bribe (!) the drug-test collector, face a five game suspension, have your union make an agreement with the league to be a two game suspension instead, THEN appeal it, and  a joint arbitrator appointed together by the league and the NFLPA say "Naw, you get five games for chutzpah"

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/32280659/sources-dallas-cowboys-lael-collins-attempted-bribe-nfl-drug-test-collector

Edited by SirFozzie
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  • 2 weeks later...
3 hours ago, Eoae said:

He was until earlier this morning.

Now it might depend on what time his wife can get an appt. with the attorney.

She's put up with it for years, and supposedly one reason she didn't want him going back to college coaching is this kind of thing, but being publicly humiliated like this might make a difference.

Couldn't happen to a shittier dude and I'm reveling in it, and so glad he turned down the $10 million/year from UT because I was going to have to stop watching.

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33 minutes ago, JLowe said:

Couldn't happen to a shittier dude and I'm reveling in it, and so glad he turned down the $10 million/year from UT because I was going to have to stop watching.

At this point,  I'd say hiring Urban Meyer is a better choice than,  whoever will keep the racist fight song. They decided they'd rather have a racist fight song than a quality football team,  which is one hell of a hill to die on. 

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