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Elsalvajeloco

UFC 203: Miočić vs. Overeem (9/10/2016) - Cleveland, OH (Quicken Loans Arena)

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23 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Not a soul gets as defensive about that as you are with this. Rogan isn't seeking to protect pro wrestling or personalities from people that are looking vilify something. He also isn't being biased or anything like that. Everything he said he was true. You are getting upset that a commentator told the truth.

I'm not getting upset, I'm not even a fan of Punk. I just thought some things Joe said didn't make sense and were over the top.  Punk knew he'd lose but fought anyway because 1. it was a dream and 2. it was capitalizing on an opportunity presented to him.

Nothing more. He said he would have fought in lesser promotions but then Dana called. That's really all that happened here.

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I think the problem with NBA analogy is that NBA would never do anything like that unless some old dude was like a D League phenom or like a streetball legend. Combat sports is different because you can have weird stuff like this. You can have like Mark Gastineau and Mickey Rourke fighting in a clearly worked boxing fights. The NBA is probably fixed depending on who you ask but you can't fix it to the point where someone off the street who has never played ball ever can look like Steph Curry or Kyrie Irving on a 82 game basis. Not going to happen. The only similarity is that you would have the dudes who have been playing basketball for years and done like hundreds of workouts but never got signed bitching about this person getting a shot. That's the way it is.

Punk was in an extremely awkward position. He wasn't a heavyweight like Lesnar and a slew of other people who just probably bully their way to have a half decent MMA record. Middleweight Bobby Lashley would probably be a barely above .500 fighter. But the fact that heavyweight outside a certain level is so awful, he can have pretty respectable showings. The UFC was coming off a bad year and wanted to get people talking about something that wasn't injuries and PPV cancellations. Punk was the quick fix except no way was he going to fight a few months after being signed. Plus, unless you can actually fight, he wasn't going to be able to say anything that would convince people he was going to win. Lesnar can say stuff because he can actually win fights or at least look half decent. I don't know why people for the past two years were expecting him to cut great promos. When he did say stuff, I think people took offense to it or it came off incredibly awkward.

With this new regime, I don't think they're that invested with Punk just because the lack of upside outside of 1 or 2 PPVs. You got people talking about a show that otherwise would just be another PPV before the next big PPV. That's what I assumed they wanted anyway. That's why I wasn't that emotionally attached either way. 

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2 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I just thought some things Joe said didn't make sense and were over the top. 

Except they did very much make sense and consistent what he has done many times before. At no point in that 2-3 minute rundown from Rogan did I disagree except for the amateur MMA thing because that's kinda off the table with a 37 year old man with money anyway. Everything else? Spot on.

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2 minutes ago, Fallacy! said:

Soooo... why the hell are you arguing that it wasn't done for financial reasons? That's basically exactly what it was.

 

Jesus Christ -- He said he wanted to fight on smaller shows, BUT the UFC offered him more money to fight on their show. Money aside, the UFC is the biggest stage in MMA. He opted to take the risk of fighting on the biggest stage. So it's not solely based on financial reasons only.

He also said he's plans to continue his career as a fighter even if he gets released from the UFC. If he fights for RFA next for example for $500, is he still doing it for financial reasons then?

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We're going around in circles now but I don't believe Punk is delusional like at all...  and I think blaming someone for capitalizing on an opportunity that nobody would have turned down is a little crazy. If Joe was telling the truth he would have said

"Well, listen..  Dana gave Punk an opportunity to fight here and while Punk has said that he would have fought elsewhere, I can't blame Punk for jumping at the chance to take a fight in UFC because we all would have done the same. Also, Punk knew he'd probably lose but this is something he's wanted to do all his life."

That's what really happened.

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So what next for Punk? Broadcasting? You know Bellator would love to have him fight for them if he wants to.

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6 minutes ago, Edwin said:

Jesus Christ -- He said he wanted to fight on smaller shows, BUT the UFC offered him more money to fight on their show. Money aside, the UFC is the biggest stage in MMA. He opted to take the risk of fighting on the biggest stage. So it's not solely based on financial reasons only.

He also said he's plans to continue his career as a fighter even if he gets released from the UFC. If he fights for RFA next for example for $500, is he still doing it for financial reasons then?

So he took the fight for the bigger money BECAUSE HIS DECISION WAS MOTIVATED BY MONEY. WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND.

There's really no risk. He had know fully well he was going to get his ass beat. Hence, "I feel like I've already won" which he did - he got to cash a fat paycheck and live out his UFC mark dreams.

Regarding the "smaller promotions" - dude, Hulk Hogan claims he auditioned for Metallica. CM Punk is a pro wrestler. They lie.

If Punk seriously wanted to learn the craft and build a resume, he would have gone and done just that - fight for the smaller promotions. What do you think happened? Dana called him up and was like "Hey dude, I heard on Sherdog you were about to ink a deal with Cage of Fury, but let me slide a few million dollars into your DM's and see if that changes your mind?"

Get real.

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10 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

We're going around in circles now but I don't believe Punk is delusional like at all... 

No, you're going in circles because you're not making any sense.

You want to be the color guy? Sign up and do that because Rogan only does the American PPVs now. If this was Brian Stann, he would done the same thing. Kenny Florian would have done the same thing. Based on what Bisping and Florian did around the time he had that back injury, ye olde Copy and Paste Florian would have lambasted him. Rogan let him off easily. He's so lucky Dom Cruz only does Shooto Brasil because he would have ethered Punk something fierce.

Their obligation is not to build up CM Punk. He provided a deadly honest take about this and basically said what people have been saying months. Almost years with an S.

Did you see Kimbo/Dada 5000 where Jimmy Smith all but said this was an embarrassment for the sport of MMA afterwards? If he was working for the UFC and did the same thing but only directed towards Punk, would you have melted like ice cream in the summer sun? Because he would have done that most likely.

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17 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Their obligation is not to build up CM Punk. He provided a deadly honest take about this and basically said what people have been saying months. Almost years with an S.

But I didn't buy the idea that Punk should have done things differently when nobody else presented with this same opportunity would have. I didn't buy that Punk was delusional. Those are easy things to say but Joe isn't Skip Bayless. This isn't ESPN First Take where you run with a narrative that is going to get the most views.  Oh well, I have nothing more to say on it.

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I agree with everything Joe Rogan said.  I'm fine with Punk fighting just this once, but I never want to see that happen again.  If Punk wants to continue fighting again, it should absolutely be on the amateur level.

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I love these post fight reactions...I couldn't help but laugh at Booker and Stevie Rays comments.

 

PS. How/What do I need to do in order for the YouTube video to be seen, and watched in my post. I'm on a fuggin tablet and dunno if its hindering me from doing so. Anyways, I will edit and remove this gargan when I find out how. Preish.

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2 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

But I didn't buy the idea that Punk should have done things differently when nobody else presented with this same opportunity would have. 

Except Jordan Burroughs who is turning down thousands of dollars to do MMA even though he would probably throttled a ton of dudes in MMA. A bunch of other Olympians (male and female) and countless amateur wrestlers who are turning down a ton of money. Also, a bunch of people who have real actual MMA experience like Fedor who turn down UFC contracts time after time. 

BESIDES THOSE DOZENS AND DOZENS OF PEOPLE...

Rogan was basically saying in a nice way you can't have it both ways. It's either/or. You can either be a legitimate martial artist and trying to grow and move up the ranks or you can get 1 or 2 paydays. He could have been like his boy Jimmy Smith and said, "Yeah, we're not going to see this dude ever again most likely." like in reference to Dada 5000. But he didn't. At age 37, he isn't going to be doing the same things Mickey Gall does at 24 or however old Mickey is. Rogan didn't say give back the money as much as he was saying if you're telling us you want to be taken seriously, you have to conduct yourself in way where you can be taken seriously. Cleaning up the gym and being humble to fellow fighters is nice, but that's not the end result of your work. It shouldn't be if you're collecting so much money than other people. It's not like SRL getting 250 grand for like his first or second pro bout. There is literally no room for having a very expensive hobby. Hell, you have people like Stipe who up until very recently was a full time fireman. However, his commitment is such that he can be the UFC Heavyweight champion when people didn't expect him to be that. That took a shitload of work and improvement over the course of years. Personally, I never gave a shit about Lauren Murphys and like random roster dudes of the world saying they can tap Punk. Because you're not the ticket and you're barely, barely holding on to a spot in the UFC. However, even though Punk seems like a nice dude on the surface as presented in the documentary on FS1 and other stuff, it still comes off in a disingenuous way that manifested itself over the last 21 months. It's not even Punk's fault imo. However, you can't talk up being a true martial artist and all this and then say it's all about the opportunity. Moreover, you can't continue to say that after signing on to fight a dude who everyone knew was going to savage you. Because if it was about the opportunity, he would build on that to make that opportunity more fruitful and beneficial. That's the delusional part. 

 

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I don't know what opportunities were presented to those other folks but for Punk it was a fight (for however much he made) on the main card of a UFC PPV. That's a hell of a thing for a guy who had never even fought before.  A guy with no background. So I do think it can be both. I think Punk was probably being truthful when he said he'd fight anywhere but I also think when presented with this particular opportunity it's something that nobody is going to say 'no' to. I think you can take MMA seriously in the way that Punk is saying he will (or intended to before the offer) but also cash in on a once in a lifetime opportunity. I think you can do both of those things.

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I can't say I'm sad he lost. But at the same time to stay "unbiased", don't forget that the almighty Beast Incarnate BROCK LESNAR tapped out in his debut in the UFC.

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1 hour ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I don't know what opportunities were presented to those other folks but for Punk it was a fight (for however much he made) on the main card of a UFC PPV. 

Dude, they don't pay folks a shit load of money and then put them on Fight Pass to start off. You think Fedor in 2009/2010 is fighting on Versus as like a co-main event for Vladimir Matyushenko or Chris Lytle? You must be insane.

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So I do think it can be both.

Except you can't because no one is going to fund your hobby especially at 37. Top Rank gave up on Tom Zbikowski. They also gave up on Subway sandwich selling Mike Lee, and he didn't even lose a fight under their watch. The likelihood of CM Punk who has bills to pay along with comfortable surroundings and a good looking spouse being a perennial visitor to the Golden Nugget casino in Shitsville, Louisiana just to lose to someone who trains with Alan Belcher is extremely unlikely. Kim Couture did that after she split with ole Randy and she was getting scissor choked to sleep by some random Canadian lady and doing the twitchy legs while unconscious. She took a couple more beatings and was never heard from again. I doubt that is the future that awaits Punk unless he falls on some really hard times. Keep in mind, he is also extremely injury prone.

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 I also think when presented with this particular opportunity it's something that nobody is going to say 'no' to. 

Except all the people who actually said no to it. You think Khadzhimurat Gatsalov was like, "Yeah, just give me 10 and 10 and we can call it even. Hell, put me on the card so I can fight below Vitor Belfort's homeboy who gets knocked out all the time"?

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Tom Zbikowski, there's a name I haven't heard in a long time.

 

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3 hours ago, damnnearfonzie said:

I can't say I'm sad he lost. But at the same time to stay "unbiased", don't forget that the almighty Beast Incarnate BROCK LESNAR tapped out in his debut in the UFC.

 

Versus a much higher level of competition, and he looked much better in losing than Punk did. 

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3 hours ago, damnnearfonzie said:

I can't say I'm sad he lost. But at the same time to stay "unbiased", don't forget that the almighty Beast Incarnate BROCK LESNAR tapped out in his debut in the UFC.

 

Versus a much higher level of competition, and he looked much better in losing than Punk did. 

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He took some nasty shots, I wouldn't call that good but yeah he showed he's a tough dude. I kinda hope he drops MMA, I think there are better things he could be doing with his time - but I suspect he'll have another go at it.

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7 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Josh Barnett but I mean it's not like he is going to be hitting suplexes on like top level fighters even at the heavyweight level. Even the Arlovski fight that just happened, he basically boxed and did some slick BJJ at the end with maybe a little catch wrestling thrown in.

At welterweight or middleweight? That's not going to go well.

Stupid question: why not?

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1 hour ago, alstein said:

 

Versus a much higher level of competition, and he looked much better in losing than Punk did. 

Yeah losing to former world champ Frank Mir isn't something to be ashamed of. 

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Catch wrestling isn't about throwing suplexes. It's about pressure points, riding, and in a sense making your competition wear itself out. It's a beautiful art for to watch. To say the smaller guys cant succeed at it is a little unjust. We all have the same limbs to mangle regardless of our weight.

Here's a good interview with Barnett 

http://www.mmafighting.com/2014/9/7/6093013/technique-talk-josh-barnett-on-catch-wrestlings-place-in-the

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