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SEPT 2016 WRESTLING DISCUSSION


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So back to the discussion pages back about the Lucha show in Yakima, Washington its been announced that Rey Mysterio vs Alberto Del patron in the main event

http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/753795-alberto-del-rio-vs-rey-mysterio-announced#/slide/1

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Fresh off his departure from WWE, Alberto El Patron (formerly known as Alberto Del Rio) has signed to face longtime rival Rey Mysterio in a battle of former WWE World champions.

Alberto Del Rio vs Rey Mysterio will take place at the debut Lucha Ilimitado card on October 12 in Yakima, Washington’s SunDome.

Also at that event, former Lucha Underground champ Fénix, current Global Force NEX*GEN champ Sonjay Dutt, current CZW World champ Jonathan Gresham, and former Olympian Jeff Cobb will battle it out in a four-way matchup to determine the first-ever Corazón de Oro champion.

Other wrestlers already booked are MVP, Juventud Guerrera, Psicosis, and Su Yung. Opponents for those wrestlers are schedule to be announced in the coming days. Tickets available at TicketsWest outlets and TicketsWest.com.

Lucha Ilimitado is owned by ChuteVerks, LLC, a joint venture of New York-based film and television companies Lost Colony Entertainment and Vrai Moi Films.

Read more at http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/753795-alberto-del-rio-vs-rey-mysterio-announced#mSivBSta5eXKKdD6.99

 

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32 minutes ago, Raziel403 said:

And honestly, as much as I love Grado, he's the actual example of someone who's massivly over in the indies/ICW and isn't on a national stage.

Depends which nation the national stage is in. Scotland? Sure. England? OK. The USA? Not really. I  mean, he's been in TNA on and off for, what, a year and a half? Hasn't made any kind of splash.

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3 hours ago, Matt D said:

Now do Osprey and Pagano. 

Ospreay is like Oasis if the Gallaghers had feuded with Ozzy for no reason instead of Blur.

Marty Scurll is like Primal Scream. Sort of interesting and fun but is so obvious in it's influences that it's ultimately shallow, despite trying to create something unique and modern.

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I think a lot of ZSJ   has to do with who he is working. The match with Dar should have been better considering they work each other often.  If you want to see some good ZSJ   I recommend his WXW collection on the Highspots network.  Good stuff with Generico, Claudio, Danielson, and Hero.    It's hard to have a bad match with the guys I mentioned but it is clear that Zack holds his own with them.  His Rev Pro stuff is also worth seeing if you have the time.

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1 hour ago, JRGoldman said:

Ospreay is like Oasis if the Gallaghers had feuded with Ozzy for no reason instead of Blur.

Marty Scurll is like Primal Scream. Sort of interesting and fun but is so obvious in it's influences that it's ultimately shallow, despite trying to create something unique and modern.

So then which current British indy wrestler is Happy Mondays?

And on the topic of guys I don't get, Marty Scurll is probably at the top of mine. Every time I have watched a hyped Scurll match by the end of it I was more impressed with his opponent's performance than his. I am still not seeing anything he brings to the table that makes him a guy worth flying over to the States.

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I think Grado's issue is too much of his moveset looks like cheap copies of more famous Americans.

 

As for Malenko, most of my college buddies thought he was a complete badass for his size.  They loved folks like Benoit and hated Jericho and many of the luchadors (except La Parka).

 

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I came away from the CWC a Zack Sabre Jr. fan, and I'd never seen him before. His first match aside, I found a lot of the criticism of him--that he doesn't sell, that he looks bored--totally confusing. I rewatched a couple matches looking for the basis for this kind of thing and just never saw it.

It got me thinking that a lot of the criticism might just come down to the way the guy looks. It seems to me that to buy into ZSJ, you have to buy into the idea that he's not just technically skilled, but that he's actually tough and durable. And I suspect some people just aren't willing to believe that a (supposedly) 6'0" 180 lb. guy, with no muscle definition, and a face that's just slightly too gawkily British to qualify him as a pretty boy, is that tough.

So it's not that he doesn't sell--as I said in another thread, I thought his selling in the CWC was average at worst and outright excellent at best--it's that he sells more stoically than some people are willing to find credible for a dude who looks like that. (I'm setting aside the times when he went a little too theatrically far in the other direction, of which I admit there were at least a couple.)

In short, if you look like Zack Sabre, you can't get away with acting like you're Misawa, ever.

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13 minutes ago, MapRef41N93W said:

I came away from the CWC a Zack Sabre Jr. fan, and I'd never seen him before. His first match aside, I found a lot of the criticism of him--that he doesn't sell, that he looks bored--totally confusing. I rewatched a couple matches looking for the basis for this kind of thing and just never saw it.

It got me thinking that a lot of the criticism might just come down to the way the guy looks. It seems to me that to buy into ZSJ, you have to buy into the idea that he's not just technically skilled, but that he's actually tough and durable. And I suspect some people just aren't willing to believe that a (supposedly) 6'0" 180 lb. guy, with no muscle definition, and a face that's just slightly too gawkily British to qualify him as a pretty boy, is that tough.

So it's not that he doesn't sell--as I said in another thread, I thought his selling in the CWC was average at worst and outright excellent at best--it's that he sells more stoically than some people are willing to find credible for a dude who looks like that. (I'm setting aside the times when he went a little too theatrically far in the other direction, of which I admit there were at least a couple.)

In short, if you look like Zack Sabre, you can't get away with acting like you're Misawa, ever.

That seems like a very unlikely argument for this place. I'm sure people would be glad to give you specific moments if you ask for them.

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43 minutes ago, clintthecrippler said:

So then which current British indy wrestler is Happy Mondays?

And on the topic of guys I don't get, Marty Scurll is probably at the top of mine. Every time I have watched a hyped Scurll match by the end of it I was more impressed with his opponent's performance than his. I am still not seeing anything he brings to the table that makes him a guy worth flying over to the States.

Scurll has impressed me the least of this newest crop of British guys, though I'll admit his performance at last year's BOLA is the most I've seen him wrestle.  He's a great heel but nothing I've seen from him in the ring has been actively bad but just not stood out in any way. 

This thread has also made me realize I have no idea who Grado is.

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In CWC, ZSJ sold like a video game character; there would be that brief glimpse of selling on his face then its right back to reset and nothing really happened (not unlike Eva). The only times when that didn't happen was when he was in the ring with opponents who refused to let him play cute (Gulak to name one, stiffed him out of that every time).

Okay, so some people maybe terrible at facial expressions but then they should really work on their body expression to compensate (Metalik was pretty darn good emoting even under his mask).

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44 minutes ago, Casey said:

Terry Funk is having "health issues" and announced his retirement (again) tonight at House of Hardcore.

I know through a mutual friend that he had some kind of surgical procedure performed a couple of months ago, and had been considering retirement.  Hopefully, it's nothing too serious.

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8 hours ago, Kevin Wilson said:

I showed my brother the tournament, he had never seen Sabre Jr. before. He was thoroughly unimpressed, I think that style of wrestling is just really niche. I am sure he is very good at it but it isn't my thing either, I don't see him ever having a place in WWE as I don't think his style is mainstream enough.

I'm not saying he is a bad wrestler or can't have good matches, but I just don't see it ever translating on a national stage.

That would seem like the only way I could see a benefit for Sabre Jr. right now:

Zack Sabre Jr.'s CWC stuff looked like he was "Bryan Danielson...circa 2000-2005 when he would do his spot dark matches or jobber squashes for WWE and put on limbwork-heavy, non-mainstream affairs", not "Daniel Bryan in the 2010s when he had finally learned how to adapt the style for a mainstream WWE roster." 

It wasn't good- it's POSSIBLE eventually- if ZSJ ever really WANTED to be in the WWE, he could adjust to have a more mainstream style...but that keyword is "if he WANTED to be there."

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48 minutes ago, sydneybrown said:

Pfft, Terry Funk's head could fall off and he'd still somehow work one more match.  

Which now begs the question since you all are shitting on ZS Jr., who would sell better:  Zack or Terry Funk without a head?

Terry Funk would sell the shit out of losing his head.  Remember how he was selling his eye in the empty arena match with Lawler, and screaming, "My eye! My eye!" over and over?  Now, imagine him losing his head.

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13 hours ago, Go2Sleep said:

I would suggest anyone who said Malenko didn't have charisma simply doesn't understand what charisma is. Charisma doesn't mean just cutting epic, emotional promos. You can be a stone-face technical wrestler and still get people invested in your character. Sometimes that quiet intensity combined with a sincere dedication to your craft appeals to people. Plus if you've ever listened to Malenko outside of the ring, he's cool as fuck.

I don't know what it would take to change your opinion there, but I think it's important to point out that this opinion can't be extrapolated into an objective truth in the face ZSJ's demonstrable popularity on the indies.

I remember him showing a lot of fire during the Starrcade 96 match against Ultimo Dragon. They had that crowd rocking.

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Meltzer said on the radio show this morning that Terry's health problems are "worrying" (Dave said Terry is one of his closest friends)

Per Dave - Terry has made some comments recently that seem to imply he is thinking he is time is coming soon. (Like there was a convention earlier this year where Terry felt dizzy in the ring but didn't want to leave the ring because "it might be for the last time")

House of Hardcore folks contacted Dave and said they were "concerned" at the show especially after he "said goodbye"

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My 14 year old boy fell out of watching wrestling a year or so ago, but still will watch occasionally when I do and sometimes ask who's champion and things like that. I was watching the CWC one day and he watched one match. It was ZSJ v Drew Gulak. He loved the match and thought ZSJ was awesome for his crazy holds and the pin combination he pulled out for the win. Since then, he asked me two or three times if "that British guy" won his match/the tournament, so he definitely made an impression.

 

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It's strange because I hated ZSJ's opening round match in the CWC and I feel like a lot of the criticism of him here is justified but I still kinda like him. I'd only seen him a few times before that and I felt the same way then.

There's something there in his look and style that's really compelling to me and sort of overcomes the negatives? I don't know I probably need to see him more before I can fully articulate my feelings.  I guess I kinda feel like a year in NXT could probably turn him into something really special and a potential main event star.

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I don't think many are outright shitting on ZSJ, it's just that many on this board oversell him as a worker and claim him to be better than he is - so we're more likely to look for the very real and present flaws in his game (that have absolutely nothing to do with his look.) Just look at the CWC thread - because people dared to find holes in his game someone just called him "underrated," which seems ridiculous to me. 

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