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SEPT 2016 WRESTLING DISCUSSION


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6 hours ago, Casey said:

Someone needs to try and sell me on Zack Sabre Jr because, uh, wow, the Crusierweight Classic did not do that. At all.

He showed a bit more fire when working quasi-heel (I think he may have something there if he becomes an Arrogant I'm Better than You at Wrestling Prick), but he still lacks these intangibles called a "personality" and "charisma." His crank holds look great, but they'd have to book him JUST RIGHT, and you know that's probably not gonna happen.

I'm just sad about Ibushi. Can't see how anyone can shit on him. He's truly an epic match machine. I didn't really care for Perkins all that much, but their match in the semis was top 3 on the year for me. His Wrestle Kingdom 9 match with Nakamura was a thing of beauty. Ibushi-Alexander, Ibushi-Kendrick and Ibushi-Perkins were all fantastic, and there's only one constant there.

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6 hours ago, Casey said:

Someone needs to try and sell me on Zack Sabre Jr because, uh, wow, the Crusierweight Classic did not do that. At all.

Yeah, he got exposed pretty badly as not living up to the hype.  I'd only seen two previous ZSJ matches going into this, I liked them both, but now I think it just because in both matches, he was working with far better workers (AJ and Pentagon Jr.).

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I'm starting to think that Sabre Jr isn't meant for people who are as passionate and well versed in wrestling as most people here are. I imagine when someone here sees Sabre work, the thought process consists of "Of that's cool, Johnny Saint did that spot. That looked like a Jim Breaks move. Neat" while when someone who hasn't watched the 70s WoS stuff (ie isn't old as fuck like we all are) they think it's really revolutionary and cool. 

He's a really good Beatles coverband, playing mostly to an audience who has never heard a Beatles song before. 

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5 minutes ago, JRGoldman said:

I'm starting to think that Sabre Jr isn't meant for people who are as passionate and well versed in wrestling as most people here are. I imagine when someone here sees Sabre work, the thought process consists of "Of that's cool, Johnny Saint did that spot. That looked like a Jim Breaks move. Neat" while when someone who hasn't watched the 70s WoS stuff (ie isn't old as fuck like we all are) they think it's really revolutionary and cool. 

He's a really good Beatles coverband, playing mostly to an audience who has never heard a Beatles song before. 

Now do Osprey and Pagano. 

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21 minutes ago, JRGoldman said:

 

He's a really good Beatles coverband, playing mostly to an audience who has never heard a Beatles song before. 

Oasis?

 

Anyway, I haven't seen a whole ton of him either. I heard he had a good match with Cody Rhodes recently, and I watched his match with Angle on YouTube which was actually pretty good given that it's an Angle match in 2016. Insanely hot crowd helped a lot.

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28 minutes ago, JRGoldman said:

I'm starting to think that Sabre Jr isn't meant for people who are as passionate and well versed in wrestling as most people here are. I imagine when someone here sees Sabre work, the thought process consists of "Of that's cool, Johnny Saint did that spot. That looked like a Jim Breaks move. Neat" while when someone who hasn't watched the 70s WoS stuff (ie isn't old as fuck like we all are) they think it's really revolutionary and cool. 

He's a really good Beatles coverband, playing mostly to an audience who has never heard a Beatles song before. 

I showed my brother the tournament, he had never seen Sabre Jr. before. He was thoroughly unimpressed, I think that style of wrestling is just really niche. I am sure he is very good at it but it isn't my thing either, I don't see him ever having a place in WWE as I don't think his style is mainstream enough.

I'm not saying he is a bad wrestler or can't have good matches, but I just don't see it ever translating on a national stage.

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That's it right there.  It's possible that people could've had a better opinion of ZSJ, had Jack Gallagher not been in the tourny.  Not only did Gallagher do the WOS style in a more entertaining manner that was worked into matches better, he has about 100x the natural charisma and personality of ZSJ so his whole act came off better and more organic than ZSJ's "Yori Nakamura's Instructional Videos" routine with less emotion.

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I might get blasted for this, but I'm pretty sure Jack Gallagher is the poor man's Zack Sabre Jr, not the other way around. They both have great technique, but ZSJ presents himself as a guy who can win big matches, while Gallagher veers off into comedy gimmick territory regularly. Gallagher looks like the third vaudevillain, while ZSJ looks like a serious wrestler, regardless of what you think of his physique. I don't know where the idea that Zack has no charisma comes from when he's one of the most over guys on the indies. He projects a lot of physical charisma in the ring, whether it's fighting spirit or a cool arrogance derived from his technical superiority.

I also think it's worth something that Zack has been one of the top indy stars for a couple years now, while Jack was barely known before the CWC. If the last few years in WWE have taught me anything, it's to bet on guys who have gotten over and risen to the top in other promotions, regardless of scale. Should they both end up in WWE, I'd bet on Zack having a more successful run. I agree with some of the criticisms about his pacing and transitions, but he's pretty far ahead of most wrestlers in the world right now when it comes to making people care about him and paying to see his matches. As Enzo says, you can't teach that.

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I would suggest anyone who said Malenko didn't have charisma simply doesn't understand what charisma is. Charisma doesn't mean just cutting epic, emotional promos. You can be a stone-face technical wrestler and still get people invested in your character. Sometimes that quiet intensity combined with a sincere dedication to your craft appeals to people. Plus if you've ever listened to Malenko outside of the ring, he's cool as fuck.

8 minutes ago, Raziel403 said:

I'm not getting the charisma from ZSJ, every match he looked bored and looked like someone playing at being a pro wrestler instead of being a pro wrestler.

I don't know what it would take to change your opinion there, but I think it's important to point out that this opinion can't be extrapolated into an objective truth in the face ZSJ's demonstrable popularity on the indies.

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Malenko was uniquely terrible at engaging with the crowd he was wrestling in front of. He'd have the same match in front of 300 people that he'd have in front of 3000, the same in a ring in San Francisco that he'd have in front of a bunch of Bikers. He wrestled in a vacuum. You can do the stone-faced technical wrestler and still be charismatic. It just happens that Dean Malenko wasn't. 

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26 minutes ago, Go2Sleep said:

I don't know what it would take to change your opinion there, but I think it's important to point out that this opinion can't be extrapolated into an objective truth in the face ZSJ's demonstrable popularity on the indies.

So is Grado, doesn't mean it would work on a national stage. I know that is an extreme example, but not every wrestler that is popular in front of 400 hardcore fans, in an intimate setting, will be popular in front of 5,000 casual fans. The truth is that I haven't seen anyone say that he blew them away at the CWC while I have seen that said about half a dozen other wrestlers in the tournament. While I don't think its fair to judge someone off just one series of matches, that's the main example we have at the moment in regards to him in front of a new non-niche crowd. I have maybe six co-workers that are WWE fans that watched the CWC, they hadn't seen most of the wrestlers before and no one came away with any really positive comments on Sabre Jr.. Again, a very small sample size, but my point is more just because someone is popular in the UK or in PWG doesn't mean that will translate to a broader and more casual audience.

Course its all hypothetical anyway, I don't know if he is even interested in signing with WWE.

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Wasn't part of Malenko's gimmick in WCW that he purposely didn't try to interact with the crowd and was 100% focused on his match? At least from 95-97 or so. He showed a lot more fire in the Jericho feud, especially when he won the battle royal disguised as Ciclope. He also played to the crowds more as a heel with the Horsemen and the Radicals where he was much more of a cheap shot artist than a technical wizard.

7 minutes ago, Kevin Wilson said:

Again, a very small sample size, but my point is more just because someone is popular in the UK or in PWG doesn't mean that will translate to a broader and more casual audience.

It's not a lock, but I think recent history has shown us that someone who has gotten over in other promotions is more likely to succeed in WWE today than someone who hasn't. If Zack got an honest chance in NXT and didn't improve his standing, I'd concede that he was doing something wrong. Right now, though, I'd say he fits the mold of someone who would be successful in WWE if he wanted to work there.

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