Backlash XII

[Just Dave]

7 minutes ago, steve said:

I had the same thoughts last night.

Also, unrelated to that... something that irked me about Mauro's call last night.

Nattie goes for the sharpshooter, and Mauro's all "THE SHARPSHOOTER RIKI CHOSHU AEKJBDAFRAFFV~ .....Bret Hart".

I know it's nitpicky on my part. But I feel like if you're gonna namedrop somebody on a Sharphooter, in the WWE, shouldn't Bret come first?

 

I'm not sure they're "fantastic," but they seem to be fully embracing their heel roles, taking out of their act anything that would endear them to fans..

 

[TheVileOne]

The Miz has been one of WWE's best workers for the last seven years.  It shouldn't surprise anyone at this point.  Was The Miz a joke?  Yeah, early on he was.  But he actually learned how to work and got better at it.  Not to mention, he actually understands how to play a competent heel.

[Beech27]

I hope this doesn't derail the thread, but: For those arguing Miz has been an overlooked great in-ring talent for years now, what matches should I seek out? I'm not trying to argue the point exactly, but I can't recall a singles match of his I'd consider better than "pretty good", much less worth watching a second time. He was great against Ziggler--who I don't think is that bad--but I don't remember him being in anything significantly better, off the top of my head. (I've watched WWE for his entire run, so it's not for lack of viewing.)

[RIPPA]

15 minutes ago, steve said:

I had the same thoughts last night.

Also, unrelated to that... something that irked me about Mauro's call last night.

Nattie goes for the sharpshooter, and Mauro's all "THE SHARPSHOOTER RIKI CHOSHU AEKJBDAFRAFFV~ .....Bret Hart".

I know it's nitpicky on my part. But I feel like if you're gonna namedrop somebody on a Sharphooter, in the WWE, shouldn't Bret come first?

 

To be fair - the WWE just did a video like two months ago pointing out that Choshu was doing it first and not Bret.

So it could be they are still cranky with Bret for god knows what reasons.

[RIPPA]

And if we are going to be nit picky - I have more a problem with Otunga saying Naomi was the first woman to ever do a springboard

[Eivion]

Wasn't he talking about in WWE?

[Charlie M.]

7 minutes ago, Beech27 said:

I hope this doesn't derail the thread, but: For those arguing Miz has been an overlooked great in-ring talent for years now, what matches should I seek out? I'm not trying to argue the point, but I can't recall a singles match of his I considered memorably good, much less worth watching a second time. He was great against Ziggler--who I don't think is that bad--but I can't recall either guy being in anything significantly better, off the top of my head.

vs Styles (SD 2/4), vs Cesaro (SD 5/26), vs Ambrose (SD 6/30)

It's mostly been on Smackdown this year that he's gotten time and quality opponents. Since Smackdown was a very overlooked show for most of the year, I imagine most people missed a lot of his best stuff.

[NintendoLogic]

It's obviously time for Segunda Caida to start putting together a Complete and Accurate Miz.

And I wouldn't read to much into the Bray match. I'm pretty sure it was a just a give the fans a crowd-pleasing result to make up for Orton not wrestling type of deal.

[Spritenaut 32]

2 hours ago, just drew said:

All in all, really good show. Except the Bray thing. inexplicable.

Yeah, I can't figure out why Bray is still on TV either.

(I'm assuming that is what you meant).
 

Really dug the PPV.  Had low expectations going in, but the show over-delivered.  I'm even enjoying Mojo.  He's not good, but he is fun.

[JRGoldman]

35 minutes ago, steve said:

I had the same thoughts last night.

Also, unrelated to that... something that irked me about Mauro's call last night.

Nattie goes for the sharpshooter, and Mauro's all "THE SHARPSHOOTER RIKI CHOSHU AEKJBDAFRAFFV~ .....Bret Hart".

I know it's nitpicky on my part. But I feel like if you're gonna namedrop somebody on a Sharphooter, in the WWE, shouldn't Bret come first?

 

I thought that was less egregious than Otunga making his first ever good point about Miz doing the knee stomp out of the surfboard spot to mock Bryan and Mauro stepped all over him just to say more Japanese names. He is actively more interested in saying names than he is in people getting over a narrative.

[RIPPA]

7 minutes ago, Eivion said:

Wasn't he talking about in WWE?

I am sure he was meaning WWE but that isn't what he said - but again if we are going to nitpick who Mauro said did the Sharpshooter, I am going to nitpick that.

[Go2Sleep]

14 minutes ago, Beech27 said:

I hope this doesn't derail the thread, but: For those arguing Miz has been an overlooked great in-ring talent for years now, what matches should I seek out? I'm not trying to argue the point, but I can't recall a singles match of his I considered memorably good, much less worth watching a second time. He was great against Ziggler--who I don't think is that bad--but I can't recall either guy being in anything significantly better, off the top of my head.

Yeah, I think this pretty much shuts down the "Miz is an elite in-ring worker" argument. He's a great character/promo guy that fills a very important role, but I think beyond that, people are just trying to see something that isn't there. I can't see loving Miz, then hating Ziggler who essentially fills the same role on the babyface side (good promo/passable match guy who can keep himself over enough to continually elevate higher-ceiling wrestlers), especially when Ziggler has a handful of easily-identifiable great matches to his credit (ADR at Payback 2013, Cesaro matches in 2014, the Survivor Series tag). Miz's best in-ring work has been slightly above average WWE formula matches. Would anyone really have any Miz match in a WWE top 10 in any year?

[Charlie M.]

5 minutes ago, RIPPA said:

I am sure he was meaning WWE but that isn't what he said - but again if we are going to nitpick who Mauro said did the Sharpshooter, I am going to nitpick that.

Mauro's worst call of the night was when he tried to force in a reference to the iPhone headphone jack during one of the eliminations.

Otunga is absolutely awful but I do find myself laughing at him like I would laugh at a Lord Alfred Hayes. He chimes in with nonsense and then says nothing for long periods of time.

[Marty Sugar]

I used to hate Mauro Ranallo as a commentator from his days in British Columbia (and on that show Renee Young did on the Score, and on the Fight Network, and...), but have enjoyed his WWE work thus far. I feel that his incessant  name-dropping of non-WWE guys to simply prove he's smart will eventually land him in Matt Striker territory.

[JRGoldman]

33 minutes ago, Beech27 said:

I hope this doesn't derail the thread, but: For those arguing Miz has been an overlooked great in-ring talent for years now, what matches should I seek out? I'm not trying to argue the point exactly, but I can't recall a singles match of his I'd consider better than "pretty good", much less worth watching a second time. He was great against Ziggler--who I don't think is that bad--but I don't remember him being in anything significantly better, off the top of my head. (I've watched WWE for his entire run, so it's not for lack of viewing.)

He's had a bunch of fun TV matches this year, but prior to that the best stuff was the Lawler match and a bunch of US Title stuff with Morrison and Bryan. They all had really good chemistry.

[Go2Sleep]

I love Mauro and Bryan trying to one-up each other with obscure references in the CWC, but it does feel a bit out of place sometimes on SD. The good definitely outweighs the bad with him, though. I like how he puts over wrestler bios, uses accurate move names, and doesn't let himself get pushed around by JBL.

[offspring515]

I like Mauro but the puns and references feel so forced.  I prefer his Japanese wrestler name-dropping to the pop culture stuff.  

Otunga is growing on me.  He's so earnest and straightforward that you just sigh and say "yeah that's super obvious David...but good point." 

[RIPPA]

If you want recent: Payback this year vs Cesaro (which one can't dismiss as just "Well if that was with Cesaro" if Go2Sleep is using Ziggler's match with Cesaro as Ziggler justification)

Plus it is far harder to do what Miz is doing as a heel (which is be the non-cool heel) than it is for Ziggler to be "babyface who gets his ass kicked"

 

[Beech27]

18 minutes ago, JRGoldman said:

He's had a bunch of fun TV matches this year, but prior to that the best stuff was the Lawler match and a bunch of US Title stuff with Morrison and Bryan. They all had really good chemistry.

Agreed on this year's mentions for Miz from everyone; I think he's certainly on the best run of his career. And perhaps I'm overstating my case here? It's not that I've ever felt he's bad--quite the opposite, I've seen him as an eternally competent heat magnet who then works consistently acceptable matches. Still, there's tremendous value in that! I just feel the "actually, he's been a great worker for years" argument might by hyperbole the other direction. 

But anyway, I'm glad he's doing the work he's presently doing. Whoever beats him is going to get a massive bump.

[Wyld Samurai]

The problem with Ziggler is that he's cosplaying the wrong guy. Instead of Nise HBK he should be Nise Perfect.

Miz owned it last night. I felt that was the correct match for Miz to bust out with as a followup to the Bryan scuffle. The legwork was so Flair it was delightfull. I also haven't seen the anyone slap the figure four on thst fast since Flair did in his prime. My only critique is that he should have dragged Ziggler back to the center of the ring to amplify the effect.

Miz probably has had it in him for a few years but didn't feel it was necessary to work that harday-or- its a sign of the shift between eras / brands that Shane alluded to with better wrestling on Smackdown?

[JRGoldman]

Just now, Beech27 said:

Agreed on this year's mentions for Miz; I think he's certainly on the best run of his career. And perhaps I'm overstating my case here? It's not that I've ever felt he's bad--quite the opposite, I've seen him as an eternally competent heat magnet who then works consistently acceptable matches. There's tremendous value in that! I just feel the "actually, he's been a great worker for years" argument might by hyperbole the other direction. But anyway, I'm glad he's doing the work he's presently doing. Whoever beats him is going to get a massive bump.

I think the discussion may be a semantic issue as well. Perhaps when people are saying "Actually, he's been a great worker for years", they don't necessarily mean he has hundreds of hidden gems, but instead that he has wrestled in a way that has allowed for his partners and opponents to be more over after feuding with him than they were going in. On some level, that's the definition of a good worker. 

Wrestling fandom is historically slow to change an opinion, and I think the pendulum swinging too far is a natural reaction to a decade of "The Miz is the worst guy on the roster, Dolph Ziggler is being held back by politics" talking points. Hyperbole is the currency of the IWC, and sadly is one of the only ways to get people to even address a point. No one would change their minds on The Miz if we went around and said "hey guys, the Miz is pretty good".

[Niners Fan in CT]

I'd say he's been a very good worker for a while but he's not often had opportunities to have matches that are going to be discussed at length.  Last month is a perfect example of this. He was good against Crews, match was perfectly fine, but it's on a huge card where a bunch of other matches are given more time so again Miz flies under the radar. 

Here Miz was a featured performer and the intercontinental title bout FELT like a bigger deal. 

He's been a tremendous heel for years. That's easier to point out. I mean who ever gave half a crap about Alex Riley?  I attribute Riley being over to Miz. Hell, Riley was still over even after the feud with Miz for a while anyway.

[Beech27]

13 minutes ago, JRGoldman said:

I think the discussion may be a semantic issue as well. Perhaps when people are saying "Actually, he's been a great worker for years", they don't necessarily mean he has hundreds of hidden gems, but instead that he has wrestled in a way that has allowed for his partners and opponents to be more over after feuding with him than they were going in. On some level, that's the definition of a good worker. 

Wrestling fandom is historically slow to change an opinion, and I think the pendulum swinging too far is a natural reaction to a decade of "The Miz is the worst guy on the roster, Dolph Ziggler is being held back by politics" talking points. Hyperbole is the currency of the IWC, and sadly is one of the only ways to get people to even address a point. No one would change their minds on The Miz if we went around and said "hey guys, the Miz is pretty good".

That's really perfectly put. There's certainly a bias--on my part, and more widely in the IWC--towards the 50/50 superfight style matches, which just don't fit his character. Miz/Nak isn't going to look anything like Zayn/Nak, for instance--and it shouldn't. In some ways, perhaps his ability to avoid "this is awesome!" chants is a skill. If every match is that sort of match, then no match is. (The Summerslam problem, let's call it.)

3 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I'd say he's been a very good worker for a while but he's not often had opportunities to have matches that are going to be discussed at length.  Last month is a perfect example of this. He was good against Crews, match was perfectly fine, but it's on a huge card where a bunch of other matches are given more time so again Miz flies under the radar. 

Here Miz was a featured performer and the intercontinental title bout FELT like a bigger deal. 

He's been a tremendous heel for years. That's easier to point out. I mean who ever gave half a crap about Alex Riley?  I attribute Riley being over to Miz. Hell, Riley was still over even after the feud with Miz for a while anyway.

All good points also. I'd put Mizdow with Riley as well. 

[Wyld Samurai]

You kmow, I kinda want to see Miz hook up with The Revival now. 

[Eivion]

The Miz is interesting. He was terrible ring wise his first few years, rose to mediocre but decent character when tagging with Morrison, rose to decent enough ring wise but good character with occasional moments of greatness during his US & World Title runs and the stuff with Awesome Truth. Whenever he has these great characters moments people get really high on him and forget how average he actually is. For once though Miz is actually firing on all cylinders. His ring work is actually matching up with what he can provide as a character. He is basically having his best year ever in the ring. It isn't amazing, but it has been good with last night's match being an arguable career performance from him. I don't know if he can tap into that again, but he has been consistent enough this year that it gives me some hope, and I feel I can least call him legit good now, if not a super worker.

20 minutes ago, Wyld Samurai said:

You kmow, I kinda want to see Miz hook up with The Revival now. 

The six-man tags would be amazing depending on their opponents.