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Backlash XII


Dolfan in NYC

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18 minutes ago, JRGoldman said:

He's had a bunch of fun TV matches this year, but prior to that the best stuff was the Lawler match and a bunch of US Title stuff with Morrison and Bryan. They all had really good chemistry.

Agreed on this year's mentions for Miz from everyone; I think he's certainly on the best run of his career. And perhaps I'm overstating my case here? It's not that I've ever felt he's bad--quite the opposite, I've seen him as an eternally competent heat magnet who then works consistently acceptable matches. Still, there's tremendous value in that! I just feel the "actually, he's been a great worker for years" argument might by hyperbole the other direction. 

But anyway, I'm glad he's doing the work he's presently doing. Whoever beats him is going to get a massive bump.

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The problem with Ziggler is that he's cosplaying the wrong guy. Instead of Nise HBK he should be Nise Perfect.

Miz owned it last night. I felt that was the correct match for Miz to bust out with as a followup to the Bryan scuffle. The legwork was so Flair it was delightfull. I also haven't seen the anyone slap the figure four on thst fast since Flair did in his prime. My only critique is that he should have dragged Ziggler back to the center of the ring to amplify the effect.

Miz probably has had it in him for a few years but didn't feel it was necessary to work that harday-or- its a sign of the shift between eras / brands that Shane alluded to with better wrestling on Smackdown?

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Just now, Beech27 said:

Agreed on this year's mentions for Miz; I think he's certainly on the best run of his career. And perhaps I'm overstating my case here? It's not that I've ever felt he's bad--quite the opposite, I've seen him as an eternally competent heat magnet who then works consistently acceptable matches. There's tremendous value in that! I just feel the "actually, he's been a great worker for years" argument might by hyperbole the other direction. But anyway, I'm glad he's doing the work he's presently doing. Whoever beats him is going to get a massive bump.

I think the discussion may be a semantic issue as well. Perhaps when people are saying "Actually, he's been a great worker for years", they don't necessarily mean he has hundreds of hidden gems, but instead that he has wrestled in a way that has allowed for his partners and opponents to be more over after feuding with him than they were going in. On some level, that's the definition of a good worker. 

Wrestling fandom is historically slow to change an opinion, and I think the pendulum swinging too far is a natural reaction to a decade of "The Miz is the worst guy on the roster, Dolph Ziggler is being held back by politics" talking points. Hyperbole is the currency of the IWC, and sadly is one of the only ways to get people to even address a point. No one would change their minds on The Miz if we went around and said "hey guys, the Miz is pretty good".

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I'd say he's been a very good worker for a while but he's not often had opportunities to have matches that are going to be discussed at length.  Last month is a perfect example of this. He was good against Crews, match was perfectly fine, but it's on a huge card where a bunch of other matches are given more time so again Miz flies under the radar. 

Here Miz was a featured performer and the intercontinental title bout FELT like a bigger deal. 

He's been a tremendous heel for years. That's easier to point out. I mean who ever gave half a crap about Alex Riley?  I attribute Riley being over to Miz. Hell, Riley was still over even after the feud with Miz for a while anyway.

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13 minutes ago, JRGoldman said:

I think the discussion may be a semantic issue as well. Perhaps when people are saying "Actually, he's been a great worker for years", they don't necessarily mean he has hundreds of hidden gems, but instead that he has wrestled in a way that has allowed for his partners and opponents to be more over after feuding with him than they were going in. On some level, that's the definition of a good worker. 

Wrestling fandom is historically slow to change an opinion, and I think the pendulum swinging too far is a natural reaction to a decade of "The Miz is the worst guy on the roster, Dolph Ziggler is being held back by politics" talking points. Hyperbole is the currency of the IWC, and sadly is one of the only ways to get people to even address a point. No one would change their minds on The Miz if we went around and said "hey guys, the Miz is pretty good".

That's really perfectly put. There's certainly a bias--on my part, and more widely in the IWC--towards the 50/50 superfight style matches, which just don't fit his character. Miz/Nak isn't going to look anything like Zayn/Nak, for instance--and it shouldn't. In some ways, perhaps his ability to avoid "this is awesome!" chants is a skill. If every match is that sort of match, then no match is. (The Summerslam problem, let's call it.)

3 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I'd say he's been a very good worker for a while but he's not often had opportunities to have matches that are going to be discussed at length.  Last month is a perfect example of this. He was good against Crews, match was perfectly fine, but it's on a huge card where a bunch of other matches are given more time so again Miz flies under the radar. 

Here Miz was a featured performer and the intercontinental title bout FELT like a bigger deal. 

He's been a tremendous heel for years. That's easier to point out. I mean who ever gave half a crap about Alex Riley?  I attribute Riley being over to Miz. Hell, Riley was still over even after the feud with Miz for a while anyway.

All good points also. I'd put Mizdow with Riley as well. 

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The Miz is interesting. He was terrible ring wise his first few years, rose to mediocre but decent character when tagging with Morrison, rose to decent enough ring wise but good character with occasional moments of greatness during his US & World Title runs and the stuff with Awesome Truth. Whenever he has these great characters moments people get really high on him and forget how average he actually is. For once though Miz is actually firing on all cylinders. His ring work is actually matching up with what he can provide as a character. He is basically having his best year ever in the ring. It isn't amazing, but it has been good with last night's match being an arguable career performance from him. I don't know if he can tap into that again, but he has been consistent enough this year that it gives me some hope, and I feel I can least call him legit good now, if not a super worker.

20 minutes ago, Wyld Samurai said:

You kmow, I kinda want to see Miz hook up with The Revival now. 

The six-man tags would be amazing depending on their opponents.

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I don't know if it's intentional but Miz v. Dolph just proved again that you can work a relatively safe match (for 2016 anyway) and still draw the entire crowd in and it's every bit as dramatic and effective.  I don't think we are seeing the genie put back in the bottle or anything, high risks are here to stay but I would love to see more of this. 

Do we think it was intentional?  I feel like maybe it was

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1 minute ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I don't know if it's intentional but Miz v. Dolph just proved again that you can work a relatively safe match (for 2016 anyway) and still draw the entire crowd in and it's every bit as dramatic and effective.  I don't think we are seeing the genie put back in the bottle or anything, high risks are here to stay but I would love to see more of this. 

Do we think it was intentional?  I feel like maybe it was

The Miz/Dolph match got the crowd so hyped they popped for Kane like it was 1999.

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Yo......I hat to say this, but you all need to chill on the Miz praise.  It's embarrassing.  He's passable, but come on.  Even that promo was really nothing special.  Dude, looked like he was going to laugh throughout the whole thing.  And people who are turning on Daniel Bryan because of that promo are just puzzling.  Let's take it down a notch and just say the Miz has improved slightly, but calling him one of the best workers of the past 7 years is a little overboard.  

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12 minutes ago, Sammo~! said:

I wouldn't mind Miz breaking Honky's record with this IC run. Then have someone squish him for the belt at Wrestlemania or afterward and you have an instant star.

I don't know about breaking Honky's record, but Samoa Joe needs to be the guy Bryan calls upon to squash Miz for the title. 

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I thought Miz/Ziggler was good, but never went above that. Miz has some sloppy looking offense, but still turned in a fine performance and Ziggler was Ziggler. Slater made for a pretty great babyface in the tag title match. The Usos already have great heel mannerisms, and I'm looking forward to seeing them develop as a heel act.

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I think Miz has hit his ceiling of where he should be. He shouldn't get anywhere near another world title reign. He worms his way through other Bryan guys until Bryan calls the one guy he knows Miz can't worm through. Eventually, the slimeball heel that shoots his mouth off one too many times needs to get his comeuppance. My scenario may not do Miz any good, but he's had more than enough opportunities. Even with his wife by his side, his act is still pretty stale. 

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I would do it at the Royal Rumble in a throwback to Taz and Angle at the 2000 Royal Rumble. It would work better this time since there would no JR and Lawler screaming about Taz using an illegal choke. By 2000, both JR and Lawler were insufferable. 

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To those saying Miz has been great for years, I am not buying it. He is great in that he allows other wrestlers to look great on and usually those guys are already super good. Even listing his best performances this year kind of is a moot point since the people listed him against are exceptionally good and are having good if not better years by themselves. AJ Styles, Cesaro, and Sami Zayn? The best evaluator of the Miz is this match against a floundering Dolph Ziggler where he did shine through. And he was great in it. He is not getting better than this. You ain't really watching it for the Miz except for this match in which Miz busted out offense he hasn't used in years. 

There is no escalation in Miz's matches. There are no stakes except for whatever title is put up. A typical Miz match starts and ends. Miz wrestles the same match over and over. He is Buried Alive match when it should be Grave Consequences. And sure, it works for him being competent, but saying he is better than Daniel Bryan who was in the twilight of his career when he was in the WWE active because the Miz did not get injured is crazy. Sure, you can hate on the athletic, agile guys all you want because you want to relate to the Miz, but come on. He is a competent, and consistent worker. I am not necessarily a believer in super worker Miz. He gets heat and wrestles competently. That is all.

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21 minutes ago, Wyld Samurai said:

That's it though. He needs to run through a few Bryan guys before he gets fed to Joe. That would be a hot scene with a good build.

Kendrick is the answer.  He runs through him, injures him with the figure four or something so his last chance is over, Bryan goes crazy and unleashes Joe on him.  

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