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Games of Thrones Unsullied thread


elizium

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Which brings me to Dany.  I think it was earned. It was rushed at the end (as was a lot of things, they needed 8 full ten episode seasons) but there is way more than enough here through the 8 seasons that show how Dany could end up being the Mad Queen.  Tons of examples of people walking her off the ledge. 

She had Jorah there to guide her.  She had Missandei there to be her best friend and adviser.  She had Tyrion as the hand.  They all either died or betrayed her. Someone with the mad gene needs a good team around them.  That was all gone.  And Snow couldn't show that he loved her either.  She had nothing left but her internal rage. 

I do think this is pretty close to the ending Martin would have come up with. She finally gets to her destination and then she burns it to the ground.  Martin is very anti-war,  I'm sure that's why we got all the imagery. It was a statement that told the viewer this is what war is and oh by the way there really aren't many good guys out here. Jorah had a line in previous seasons where a sword does something to a man in battle. Even the men who you think are good men,  a beast is unleashed from inside of them. 

I loved that dummy trying to test Jon fucking Snow of all people. Snow says "you ain't raping nobody on my watch" and he thought he was going to get over on the King of the North. Fuck off. 

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6 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Read the post above yours and tell me what more or less it should be? 

Dany's work rate has been comparable to Seth Rollins overall. Lots of highspots to get the crowd going, but when you think back on it, it was really hollow.

Jon Snow is similar to John Cena in which he's wildly over, but his facial expressions can be a little over the top and his best matches were against better workers.

Tyrion is kinda like Daniel Bryan in that he has perhaps the best skills on the roster, but bad booking has brought out some of his worst habits.

If I could add polls to a thread after the fact I would.

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52 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Exactly; now do the Mountain fashion watch:

hafpor-1.jpg

The blue M&M after suing his parents and announcing he wants the media to call him by his full adult name and is only doing serious roles now.

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Jaime's storyarc was completely pointless. Again, if he dies last season, it's a better ending for him and gives Cersei more reason to do the shit she did.

The Bronn stuff now? Completely fucking pointless. This used to be a series where so much had meaning or lead to something. I mean...looking at this in hindsight now, was that Bronn's goodbye from the series? Fucking really?

 

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SZB2ZAMQIZDQ5MU5VJCAK5FDEE.png

Maybe wait till the story ends before branding your child with the name of a character you like.

It's like getting a band tattoo. Sure, you like Radiohead now, but how will you feel if they switch gears to country rap and you've got their logo on your arm? At least then you're the one stuck with it. Not your kid.

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10 minutes ago, Craig H said:

Jaime's storyarc was completely pointless. Again, if he dies last season, it's a better ending for him and gives Cersei more reason to do the shit she did.

The Bronn stuff now? Completely fucking pointless. This used to be a series where so much had meaning or lead to something. I mean...looking at this in hindsight now, was that Bronn's goodbye from the series? Fucking really?

 

All of my predictions for how Jaime's arc would end were wrong because I stupidly gave the writers too much credit. All of that character development for him to just end up back in Cersei's arms. If they were trying to make Cersei sympathetic in the end in contrast with Dany, it didn't work. They're both awful. Cersei getting weepy out of concern for her baby did nothing to erase all the horrible things she did the rest of the series. It didn't make Jaime's choice seem like the right one. It was stupid to go back to her and he got what he deserved.

Also, Cersei dying in a collapsed tunnel was a rather anticlimactic end for someone who had previously been the show's big villain, but I suppose it's in keeping with the theme of giving us what we want in a way we don't want.

I've read that Bronn has a bigger role in the show than in the books. The showrunners might've been stuck on what to do with him at this point in their story. I hope that wasn't it for him.

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I mean, if you didn't have anything more for Bronn, then don't fucking bring him back. I mean, he rode off last season and that was the end of it. We didn't need to know anything more about him.

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By the way, revisiting what Throat said. GoT often gives us what we want in a way we don't want it or gives us something adjacent to what we want...

And then to tie this into something nate said in one of the wrestling threads about shitty ex-girlfriends giving shitty gifts that aren't what you want or are adjacent to what you want despite asking you what you want.

GoT is a real shitty ex-girlfriend or ex-boyfriend who builds up this gift they got you and makes it sound like it's the thing you want, and you open it up, and all you feel is disappointment or it leaves you looking to see if there's a receipt in the box to make an exchange.

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2 minutes ago, Craig H said:

I mean, if you didn't have anything more for Bronn, then don't fucking bring him back. I mean, he rode off last season and that was the end of it. We didn't need to know anything more about him.

I think the last time he was seen last season was when he and Pod skipped the Dragonpit meeting because Flynn and Headey can't be in the same scene together. So he was still in King's Landing when Jaime split, right? They had to do something with him this season, but I hope there's more to it. Not much time left, though.

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Then a better ending for Bronn would have been following Jaime to Winterfell, pointing out all of the other shit he's done, warning them that Cersei plans to double cross all of them, saying he's survived more than enough and he's not rolling the dice on this, and then have him ride off after saying his goodbyes.

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Hey...I just thought of something and one of you can correct me if I'm wrong...

So, it's been awhile, but in the first and second seasons, weren't they playing up this mystery over magic returning to the world? You had the coming long winter, possibly brought on by magic, magic re-emerging in other ways, dragons being born and maybe that having something to do with magic becoming a thing again, and the gods doing whatever it was they were doing. I've re-watched this series 2 or 3 times, but I always get very fuzzy on those first couple of seasons. I swear though that magic was a bigger deal back then.

And that mystery was basically all but abandoned.

Am I imagining this?

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Did anyone catch the dragon flying over was in Bran's vision? As was Cersei blowing up the Sept.  It's been said that he can see the past and the present but the future is less clear. I really hope he has fucking something to do in the next episode because out of all the characters I feel like everything surrounding him is the biggest waste of potential.  

Question..   what did you guys imagine for Dany and for Jaimie?   We have a lot of book readers here and people who have been watching since season 1.  Did you see their end playing out like this? 

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nb: This is a reply to Craig's question about Magic.

No. But magic was a GRRM thing, not a Benioff & Weiss thing. The characters who were most involved in (non-religious forms of) magic either aren't in the show, or are much changed.

You know how they like to mirror previous scenes, and have lines repeat from earlier? If they wanted to have Dany's sudden rage make sense, they should have had it mirror Joffrey starting a riot because someone threw shit on his face. They needed something to make her switch from "I'm taking this City" to "To hell with this city!", and an act of defiance or hatred from a civilian would have worked.

As far as Niner's question, Daenerys could go either way, but people generally expect Jaime to kill Cersei, not die trying to save her.

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2 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Did anyone catch the dragon flying over was in Bran's vision? As was Cersei blowing up the Sept.  It's been said that he can see the past and the present but the future is less clear. I really hope he has fucking something to do in the next episode because out of all the characters I feel like everything surrounding him is the biggest waste of potential.  

Question..   what did you guys imagine for Dany and for Jaimie?   We have a lot of book readers here and people who have been watching since season 1.  Did you see their end playing out like this? 

I know a lot of book readers were/are invested in the theory of Jaime being the valonquar (younger brother) that was prophesied to kill Cersei (though it was never mentioned on the show).  And, honestly, I don’t think Jaime killing Cersei made any kind of sense.  As established in his conversations with Tyrion and Brienne before and after the battle of Winterfell, he has always been a fool for her.  There’s no way he could ever bring himself to swing the sword on her (especially not with her carrying his unborn child).  So, it would’ve had to have been some lame accident, like she slipped, fell, and landed on his sword.

Jaime heading south in hopes of making some kind of resolution that keeps Cersei and their child alive (and thereby doom himself in the end) makes total sense.  What doesn’t make sense is that he would *totally* revert back to his old self, disregarding his personal growth beyond being Cersei’s lapdog, who would say shit like, “We’re all that matters.  Nothing else.” That doesn’t track at all.  And makes Brienne’s parting with him twice as shitty.

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On the show if you wanted someone to kill Cersei Arya probably makes the most sense but with her taking out Night King I didn't think it was setup for her to accomplish that final goal. Tyrion got dumber and dumber as the last couple seasons went on but I think his end game which was just basically him trying to save his family probably makes the most sense. He was always a sucker for Cersei despite all she did to him.  I kinda didn't like him being blind to Dany.  Varys saw what was up, he figured out how the coin landed.  Shame Tyrion didn't see it,  he's said many times how she doesn't like to have her authority questioned, he should have totally been in with Varys.  

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I never really felt the books or the shows were making a big mystery out of why magic suddenly was roaring back. It just was.

If I could make one huge, sweeping change to the early part of the series, I would drop so all the White Walker stuff until after Bran and Rickon fled Winterfell. "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" and all that. Turns out it's not just practical advice. But that's just me.

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I think Dany goes mad in Martin's books too--if they ever come--with the important distinction that a mad king/queen is basically a redundant phrase. The books have always echoed Martin's anti war/imperialism politics a little--and more than the show, certainly--so I think it will be emphasized that Dany ultimately does what she always has: kill those who betray her or will not bend the knee. In that way she's the ultimate rational expression of monarchy when faced with nothing but enemies, and not mad at all.

(I'm aware that the show runners contradict this directly, and shot/directed it to suggest a momentary snap. Her madness gene suddenly triggers. Which is dumb, so I'm ignoring it. Death of the author is easy when they aren't really, totally the authors.)

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There are complexities to Jaime's character and relationship to his family in the books that the show never really got into. In the book, it's noted that he says "The things I do for love"* with loathing. Tyrion's first wife being revealed as a whore Jaime hired in the show is just the way it happened. In the books, when Jaime frees Tyrion from his death sentence he admits that that was a lie his Dad made him go along with, and Tysha really loved Tyrion. Which is why Tyrion goes to kill Tywin, instead of just escaping. The books have always been deeper and more complex.

* Must be a big Courage the Cowardly Dog fan.

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OK, this may take a while but I'm going to try to address all my issues with the penultimate episode...

  1. First and foremost this was a beautifully shot episode of television.  The Battle of Winterfell looked like shit, and everything was hard to decipher while watching it.  There isn't much criticism I can think of about how visually engaging this episode was.
  2. Why are Scorpions superweapons in one episode and completely and totally useless in the next episode?  Honestly, why didn't she just burn those ships last week instead of losing her entire fleet?
  3. Varys is the only person on Dany's small council who is worthy of respect.
  4. The Dany descent was poorly executed.  It feels like they threw a bunch of bricks together but didn't put any mortar between them to actually build a wall.  I just didn't believe she had been through enough in the last few episodes to actually have the kind of psychotic break that she would need to burn the entire city down.  Honestly, the worst thing that happened to her was Viserion died, which was 100% her fault because she was flying so low that she didn't see an entire fleet of ships before they saw her when she was flying in the fucking air.  The problem is that it feels like the only thing that she's legitimately mad about is that people like Jon more than her...and that shouldn't be enough.  Honestly, she doesn't feel like a woman scorned by her tragic life, she feels like a teenager who is throwing a tantrum because she's not the prettiest girl at the dance.  Seriously, if we go through the entire show and take account of all the trauma all of the characters have to go through, she's near the bottom of the list.  If they are going to pull off the turn from someone who dedicated her life to ending tyranny to someone who is a tyrant, there needed to be a moment large enough that it feels almost justified.  Seriously, this show had Sansa shrug off the fact that she was raped by a psychopath like it was no big deal, but Dany can't help that Jon told his little sister a secret.  Whatever caused this change needed to be at the level or worse than Jaime pushing Bran out of a window, Ned getting his head cut off, or The Red Wedding.  It makes no sense for the people who went through those traumas to be the ones less pissed at the Lannisters than the person who was too stupid to wait for backup when her dragon died.  
  5. Why are Jon and Tyrion so loyal to Dany?  Honestly, what has she done that would make either of them decide to back her more than each other or their own families?  I'm having a hard time buying into the fact that our two heroes would go along with Dany's psychopathy.  Between the two of them, they've seen evil, fought evil, and should be the first people in line to destroy that evil, except they decided to blindly follow her in a way that betrays their characters.  Between the two of them, they should be very opinionated about what makes a good leader.  Their entire lives have been shaped by the behavior of horrible leaders.  Jon spent his entire life believing he was a bastard because his father Rhaegar decided to run off with Lyanna Stark who was already betrothed to Robert Baratheon.  That one act led to the deaths of Rickard Stark, Brandon Stark, Aerys Targaryen, and Rhagar himself.  The lie had to keep going because Robert Baratheon would have killed him.  Robert recruited Ned, which led to Robert's death, Ned's death, Bran's crippling, Robb's death, Sansa's rape, and Rickon's death.  All of those things happened to him and everyone he has ever loved, because of poor leadership.  How is it when Dany starts going crazy his only response is, "She's our queen," despite the fact that he has to see where this road is leading.  He's seen this movie before but was somehow surprised by the ending.  
  6. Euron is pretty much the worst character in the entire run of the show...I mean worst than Ros, Locke, Karl from Flea Bottom, and every other goofy character they introduce for no reason.  Am I the only one who wasn't invested in him as a character at all?  He got into a fight to the death with one of my favorite characters and I couldn't have cared less.  Speaking of, shouldn't Jaime have died before him?  There is no way possible that Jaime gets those two stab wounds and then just walks around looking for Cersei for at least another hour.
  7. Jaime and Cersei's end felt forced and kind of stupid.  There is no way in the world that Jaime should still love that woman.  His entire character arc leads to him growing into the man he is when he is with Brienne...but nope...run right back to the personification of evil who sleeps around with everyone as soon as you leave the room.  Not my favorite plot point.
  8. Cersei dying a relatively peaceful death is kind of anti-climactic for one of the best TV villains of all time.  Cersei's story arc is the single best thing that the show has done in the entire run of the series.  She is very different from the book character, but in ways that make the character more interesting on a television show.  Cersei is a paranoid, incompetent, psychopath in the books, but her incompetence is insulated by brilliant people like Tywin, Tyrion, Varys, Littlefinger, Jaime, etc.  We get her point of view when those people start either dying off or leaving her side.  Until then, readers have every reason to believe that she's a capable leader, but once you get inside her head you can see that she's in way over her head.  We get to see her descent and it's fascinating especially on rereads (seriously, if you read Feast for Crows once, it's your least favorite book, but if you read (or listen) multiple times Feast for Crows may be the best overall book.).  It provides all the mortar between the bricks to make her descent into insanity work on the page that wouldn't work on the screen.  
  9. OK, so this episode was full of unsatisfying character moments, but everything involving The Hound was 100% perfect.  The Hound is a brutish ass, but he's a fundamentally decent brutish ass. His telling Arya to get the fuck out of Kings Landing before she ends up like him was the culmination of everything he's tried to teach both Arya and Sansa since the beginning of the show.  Arya is still a child who looks at the world through a child's eyes, despite how many people she's killed.  She thinks killing Cersei would actually mean something.  Cersei is a runny nose, yeah it sucks to have snot dripping down your upper lip, but if you want to fix the issue you have to cure the disease that is causing your nose to run.  If you just keep cleaning up the runny nose without treating the bigger problem, you'll always have a runny nose.  Cersei is just the current runny nose.  Dany will be the next one, then Jon, then Sansa, then maybe even Arya if she's not careful.  
  10. Cleganebowl was also great.  Gregor is a force of nature who only exists to cause pain and suffering to everyone he encounters.  The Hound feels that it is his responsibility to put an end to that pain and suffering. After hitting his brother with everything he has, he notices the fire down below and he needs to end this fight where it started and spears Gregor into the blaze.  I thought that fight was perfect.  Sandor fully understood that he was going to die when he went looking for his brother, he just had to figure out a way to take his brother with him.
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4 hours ago, Beech27 said:

The Dothraki and Unsullied acting as they did is basically supported by... every city sacking ever, so I don't need much to justify that

Dany, I don't think is practically motivated. That is, in that moment she isn't thinking that this will help her keep the throne. I think, instead, she sees the people as avatars of the rejection she's faced and feels--rather than thinks--in that moment that they are all present or potential conspirators against her, and thus should be treated like traitors. If you wanted to take it further, she's breaking her toys so no one else can play with them.

That's fine. I actually raised the Dothraki as an issue before they even arrived at Westeros. How was Dany going to make the Westerosi people love her if her horde was riding around pillaging and raping everyone? How would the Dothraki respond if told to stop?

My big gripe from an army perspective is why all the Northmen just went along with it.

They already dislike Dany and her motivation. They follow Jon/Sansa almost to a fault. Now they are happy to just tear through the city pack raping young women and slitting their mothers throats in front of them?

All it took was 20 seconds of Dany on Drogon saying "You're either with me or against me" and a few of the Northerners get a bit out of control. As it was presented it seems like they all had an insatiable appetite for horrible things, despite years of being shown as honorable, loyal, Ned Stark loving people.

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