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Games of Thrones Unsullied thread


elizium

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1 hour ago, The Magnificent 7 said:

You don’t have to be a military genius like Hannibal Barca to do basic shit like order your archers to shoot the enemy with arrows while they are standing around doing nothing. 

Yes, shooting already dead enemies with arrows is a most clever solution. I'm afraid that you lose all the good will you received for citing my favorite general of the ancient world for that massive strategic faux pas. The proper attack plan would have started with strafing runs of dragonfire, not held off until the Dothraki were wiped out. 

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13 minutes ago, OSJ said:

Yes, shooting already dead enemies with arrows is a most clever solution. I'm afraid that you lose all the good will you received for citing my favorite general of the ancient world for that massive strategic faux pas.

Flaming arrows. Fire kills wights.

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They shot fireballs into the sky.  that accompanied The Dothraki.  I believe the idea was The Dothraki would rip right through the center of the wight army and then they'd swoop in with the dragons.  The Dothraki are supposed to be unbeatable in an open area like that.  

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Medieval expert Shadiversity had a pretty good video on why they failed on all the battle tactics even against an army of the undead.

To sum up my feelings on this series, I think the writing and storytelling and at times the editing is subpar. I think it's a show that's elevated by it's insane production values, high level acting and performances, at times direction, and cinematography. Also the edgy content. But the writing of Benioff and Weiss constantly lets it down IMO. I feel someone like Steven DeKnight would've done a far better job with this show or story. 

Game of Thrones overall to me is a show where the parts are greater than the whole. 

In the show's defense, some of the horrendous editing choices do remind me of the theatrical cut of Return of the King, which had a ton of setups with no dramatic payoff. That's unacceptable.

In this episode of Game of Thrones, you went from characters about to get killed and surrounded by mobs to not dying or being OK. Arya goes from fighting through the mobs to sneaking around Winterfell halls, which makes no sense. And then she's suddenly pouncing on Night King. That's bad editing and visual storytelling.

Someone else made a good point. That Arya sneaking scene would've made more sense if it was someone else not Arya where there was a palpable sense of danger. If that was Sansa, Gilly, Missandei or a couple of them, it would've been infinitely better and more suspenseful. Arya was never in any actual danger there.

Edited by TheVileOne
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26 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

Medieval expert Shadiversity had a pretty good video on why they failed on all the battle tactics even against an army of the undead.

 

Normally I would agree with Shad, but I think he forgets the basic idea that the whole point of the plan was to get to the Night King.  Letting the white walkers assault Winterfell directly would've just put more bodies between the North and the Night King.  

But yes, I whole heartedly agree that a moat would've worked wonders.

Edited by J.T.
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I think it's a bit unfair to say D&D can't write. Season 6 for example was far beyond the books and it had episodes like 'Battle of the Bastards' which were superb.  Going back to 'Hardhome',  it's a battle that is alluded to right but doesn't take place in the books..   I think they've done a great job,   Martin himself thinks they've done a great job. 

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1 minute ago, J.T. said:

Normally I would agree with Shad, but I think he forgets the basic idea that the whole point of the plan was to get to the Night King.  Letting the white walkers assault Winterfell directly would've just put more bodies between the North and the Night King.  

But yes, I whole heartedly agree that a moat would've worked wonders.

It's a valid point, but did sending out your entire cavalry out in the open to basically get slaughtered really accomplish anything to draw out the Night King? It just seems like a waste when they ultimately had most of the infantry retreat into Winterfell anyway. And the recently dead ones simply became the Night King's minions.

Seems they also should've had catapaults or artillery behind the walls and more archers prepped on the walls with some dragon glass/obsidian tipped arrow heads or flaming arrowheads.

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1 minute ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I think it's a bit unfair to say D&D can't write. Season 6 for example was far beyond the books and it had episodes like 'Battle of the Bastards' which were superb.  Going back to 'Hardhome',  it's a battle that is alluded to right but doesn't take place in the books..   I think they've done a great job,   Martin himself thinks they've done a great job. 

I mean season 6 also has teleporting Varys. And their main excuse with the teleporting physics is "Well fans complained we had to get on with it, so we got on with it."

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18 hours ago, TheVileOne said:

It's a valid point, but did sending out your entire cavalry out in the open to basically get slaughtered really accomplish anything to draw out the Night King? It just seems like a waste when they ultimately had most of the infantry retreat into Winterfell anyway. And the recently dead ones simply became the Night King's minions.

You send out the calvary because they have horses and there is an ever so slight chance that not all of them will die.  

Sending out an infantry that can't move as rapidly as a cavalry unit can leads to even more white walkers created, right.  

The North did not have the luxury of fighting a defensive battle against the Night King's army.  If Jon had waited for the Night King to come for Bran and then used castle attrition tactics, it probably would've been even more disastrous.. 

The Night King would've just surrounded the castle and dared them them to come out.  The mother fucker can kill a dragon by himself, so sending out dragon support to defend the castle walls would've resulted in three zombie dragons burning the shit out or the Northern Kingdom instead of just one.... which is one too many..

The castle defenders would've had two choices if they used traditional defensive tactics.

1) Go Outside And Fight , Die, Become A Wight. 

or

2) Stay Inside Castle, Starve To Death, Become A Wight.

Jon made the right calls given the plan but things just went the Night King's way that battle, as they should have since we'd undercut the season by like eight episodes if the North had won that shit.

Edited by J.T.
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1 minute ago, J.T. said:

You send out the calvary because they have horses and there is an ever so slight chance that not all of them will die.  

Sending out an infantry that can't move as rapidly as a cavalry unit can leads to even more white walkers created, right.  

The North did not have the luxury of fighting a defensive battle against the Night King's army.  If Jon had waited for the Night King to come for Bram and then used castle attrition tactics. 

 The Night King would've just surrounded the castle and dared them them to come out.  The mother fucker can kill a dragon by himself, so sending out dragon support to defend the castle walls would've resulted in three zombie dragons burning the shit out or the Northern Kingdom.

The castle defenders would've had two choices if they used traditional defensive tactics.

1) Go Outside And Fight , Die, Become A Wight. 

or

 2) Stay Inside Castle, Starve To Death, Become A Wight.

 Jon made the right calls given the plan but things just went the Night King's way that battle, as they should have since we'd undercut the season by like eight episodes if the North had won that shit.

I mean I thought you send out cavalry to quickly overrun and outbattle and defeat an enemy force that's largely on foot. But the leadership already knew that you can't really beat the Wights that way, so it just seemed like a foolish choice IMO. 

Doesn't seem like Jon completely made all the right choices. 

I recall in Goblin Slayer after he dealt with a Goblin horde that was attacking a village, it was that time he decided he'd never fight an entire horde out in an open field because there are too many unpredictable variables. Granted at that time, he created a wall around the village and kicked open part of it to create an intentional opening or chokepoint so he'd know where they all come in from.

Also, the Night King seemed pretty stupid for not waiting another 30 minutes until everyone in Winterfell was dead before moving on Bran. 

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15 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

I mean I thought you send out cavalry to quickly overrun and outbattle and defeat an enemy force that's largely on foot. But the leadership already knew that you can't really beat the Wights that way, so it just seemed like a foolish choice IMO. 

It was pretty dumb, but not nearly as stupid as allowing the Walkers to surround your castle in the hope that you can pepper them to death with arrows and possibly endanger your two biggest assets aka the dragons by having them strafe the Walkers and make rather inviting targets for ice javelins.

The best way to win the war is to take the fight to the Night King.  The plan is solid but the execution needs a lot or work.

15 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

Also, the Night King seemed pretty stupid for not waiting another 30 minutes until everyone in Winterfell was dead before moving on Bran. 

So his weakness is confirmed and the key to winning is to once again use Bran as the lure to get the Night King to fight on the ground you choose to fight on and once again, take the fight to the Night King.

The plan going forward won't really change from the Battle of Winterfell even if the tactics are sharpened. 

The real problem is that the North is bearing the brunt of the fighting.

Edited by J.T.
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2 minutes ago, J.T. said:

It was pretty dumb, but not nearly as stupid as allowing the Walkers to surround your castle in the hope that you can pepper them to death with arrows and possibly endanger your two biggest assets aka the dragons by having them strafe the Walkers and make rather inviting targets for ice javelins.

So his weakness is confirmed and the key to winning is to once again use Bran as the lure to get the Night King to fight on the ground you choose to fight on.

So the plan going forward won't really change from the Battle of Winterfell.  The real problem is that the North is bearing the brunt of the fighting.

Surprised you have time to post tonight when North Korea firing off missiles. ? 

 

i also wonder if Bran knew that his plan would work all along. When you can be unstuck in time ... 

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23 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

Surprised you have time to post tonight when North Korea firing off missiles..

Our folks that are downrange are on lockdown.  

41 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

I recall in Goblin Slayer after he dealt with a Goblin horde that was attacking a village, it was that time he decided he'd never fight an entire horde out in an open field because there are too many unpredictable variables. Granted at that time, he created a wall around the village and kicked open part of it to create an intentional opening or chokepoint so he'd know where they all come in from.

Same thing in the movie, The 13th Warrior.  First order of business was to get defensive fortifications set up to defend against what?  Heavy Cavalry! 

In this case, the Vikings had the luxury of fighting a mortal army, so the usual defensive tactics worked out well and they only went on offense once the defensive archers and ambush tactics had put a sizable dent in the overall numbers of the invading forces.

And once again, we have a head of the snake plan in this movie as we did in GoT.  Once Buliwyf killed the Wendol leader, the remaining army fled.

Of course the Wendol did not have the power to reconstitute their numbers with the Viking dead and Buliwyf died heroically in the course of killing the Wendol commander.

Edited by J.T.
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Considering the army was marching on Winterfell, I still think the cavalry run was pointless. You could've had a smaller force of infantry on the outside because again, they simply more quickly gave the Night King more people to become his soldiers. Also, they put their most vulnerable civilians in the crypts where they were fodder for the Night King as well because a crypt is full of dead bodies, something that a lot of people online saw coming. And that's exactly what happened. Jon should've known better.

But then again, Jon knows nothing.

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Ok, here is who I would count as the best military minds in Westeros who have appeared in the show/books.

Robb Stark.  Seriously, Robb won every battle he ever fought despite having less experience and being often outnumbered.  His faults were political, he was a Stark through and through, but on the field of battle, he was unmatched.

Stannis.  People like to reference Tyrion's strategy at the Battle of Blackwater, which was extremely intelligent, but the thing people ignore is that Stannis would have won if it wasn't for Renly's army showing up unexpectedly.  Tyrion's strategy only worked, because it slowed Stannis' army down long enough for Loras, his brother Garland showed up with the strength of Renly's army.  If they would have shown up 2 hours later, it would have probably been too late.  Stannis couldn't have possibly anticipated that move, and he retreated...but King's Landing was lost.  Stannis has one huge weakness, and that is that no one loves him.  People follow him out of a sense of duty, but given a choice between him or either of his brothers, people will choose his brothers.  He's also the best naval commander in the entire series.  He smashed the Iron Fleet during the Greyjoy rebellion.

Randyll Tarly.  Randyll Tarly is the only person who led an army against Robert Baratheon and won.  He may very well be #1, but we see very little of him.  Quite possibly the hardest man in Westeros.

I'd put Ned over Robert for the rebellion, despite Robert leading the army.  All of the biggest strategic victories belong to Ned.  Robert may very well be the best fighter in the entire series, and he inspired the bejesus out of everyone involved.  He's a great soldier, but I can't say much about his ability as a general.  Ned's army won the Battle of the Bells while Robert was wounded and hiding in a brothel.  Ned broke the siege at Storms End.  Ned took King's Landing.  Robert killed Rhaegar at the Trident, but Ned was leading the army that won while Robert was fighting in single battle.  

I can't say Grey Worm is some sort of great general.  The Unsullied are not about strategy, they are about discipline.  They'll stand in formation and fight to the very last man without ever breaking.  That is a great fighting force, but it doesn't take much brain power, I'd actually argue the opposite.  

Tywin is a great politician, that's how he wins.  All of his greatest victories are him picking his spots.  He doesn't really have many victories where he lines up across from another worthy force and beats them on the field of battle.

 

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16 minutes ago, supremebve said:

Ok, here is who I would count as the best military minds in Westeros who have appeared in the show/books.

Robb Stark.  Seriously, Robb won every battle he ever fought despite having less experience and being often outnumbered.  His faults were political, he was a Stark through and through, but on the field of battle, he was unmatched.

Stannis.  People like to reference Tyrion's strategy at the Battle of Blackwater, which was extremely intelligent, but the thing people ignore is that Stannis would have won if it wasn't for Renly's army showing up unexpectedly.  Tyrion's strategy only worked, because it slowed Stannis' army down long enough for Loras, his brother Garland showed up with the strength of Renly's army.  If they would have shown up 2 hours later, it would have probably been too late.  Stannis couldn't have possibly anticipated that move, and he retreated...but King's Landing was lost.  Stannis has one huge weakness, and that is that no one loves him.  People follow him out of a sense of duty, but given a choice between him or either of his brothers, people will choose his brothers.  He's also the best naval commander in the entire series.  He smashed the Iron Fleet during the Greyjoy rebellion.

Randyll Tarly.  Randyll Tarly is the only person who led an army against Robert Baratheon and won.  He may very well be #1, but we see very little of him.  Quite possibly the hardest man in Westeros.

I'd put Ned over Robert for the rebellion, despite Robert leading the army.  All of the biggest strategic victories belong to Ned.  Robert may very well be the best fighter in the entire series, and he inspired the bejesus out of everyone involved.  He's a great soldier, but I can't say much about his ability as a general.  Ned's army won the Battle of the Bells while Robert was wounded and hiding in a brothel.  Ned broke the siege at Storms End.  Ned took King's Landing.  Robert killed Rhaegar at the Trident, but Ned was leading the army that won while Robert was fighting in single battle.  

I can't say Grey Worm is some sort of great general.  The Unsullied are not about strategy, they are about discipline.  They'll stand in formation and fight to the very last man without ever breaking.  That is a great fighting force, but it doesn't take much brain power, I'd actually argue the opposite.  

Tywin is a great politician, that's how he wins.  All of his greatest victories are him picking his spots.  He doesn't really have many victories where he lines up across from another worthy force and beats them on the field of battle.

 

Okay, I'll play... Robb Stark gets both the accolades for being a brilliant commander and and it must be said also being lucky as fuck. (see also: Snow, Jon)

You nail it on Stannis, people will follow him out of a sense of duty, but that in itself isn't enough for a top-tier commander. One must be loved or feared (ideally both), and Stannis is just sort of there. I believe it was Renly who said that he had "the personality of a lobster"; yeah, that's pretty close.

Randyll Tarly: Unlikable hard bastard, however it would be frightening to see what he could achieve with a large army behind him.

Ned and Robert were both great fighters and absolute idiots in other regards. Of the two, there's no question but that Ned was the better commander. Robert's idea of strategy was to go full tilt at whatever was in front of him waving his hammer.

The Unsullied are obviously based on the Roman legions. A disciplined force that doesn't break can be a devastating weapon. I won't say that Grey Worm is a great general, but he damn sure knows how to get the most out of his troops.

Totally agreed on Tywin, why fight when you can buy a victory?

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Robert's big strategy in the Rebellion was to do forced overnight marches, and arrive with his army at the battle much earlier than he was expected, and sometimes even before the opposition army even reached the town they were intending to occupy. But he (and Ned) were very much front line generals, who lead the Vanguard and inspire the troops etc. Tywin always put The Mountain leading the Van, and lead the reserve (a Cavalry unit) himself.

Using the Dothraki as a reserve might have been better. Let the Walkers advance to the Barricade, then have the cavalry flank them while they're already engaged. When a unit's great advantage is speed of movement, you can have them disengage and re-engage (possibly elsewhere, if needed) as many times as you want right?

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Where does Robyn Arryn rank? I mean, he was the one who sent the Knights of the Vale up North to break Ramsay Bolton. The last shot of the show will be Robyn and his falcon sitting on the throne.

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The dumbest tactician in the entire series was Baylon Greyjoy. The Greyjoy Rebellion was tactically the dumbest thing ever. On the one side you have the Greyjoys. On the other side you have Robert Baratheon, Ned Stark, Tywin Lannister, Jaime Lannister, The Mountain, Blackfish Tully, Barriston Selmy etc. Essentially an all-star team of GOT fighters and strategists. That was basically Angola vs. the Dream Team in the 92 Olympics.

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6 minutes ago, cwoy2j said:

The dumbest tactician in the entire series was Baylon Greyjoy. The Greyjoy Rebellion was tactically the dumbest thing ever. On the one side you have the Greyjoys. On the other side you have Robert Baratheon, Ned Stark, Tywin Lannister, Jaime Lannister, The Mountain, Blackfish Tully, Barriston Selmy etc. Essentially an all-star team of GOT fighters and strategists. That was basically Angola vs. the Dream Team in the 92 Olympics.

And you left out naval genius Stannis Baratheon... Baylon Greyjoy was a complete idiot, Euron is actually dangerous and knows how to win battles. Baylon knew how to attack unprotected villages and merchant ships when he could get away with it.

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15 minutes ago, cwoy2j said:

Where does Robyn Arryn rank? I mean, he was the one who sent the Knights of the Vale up North to break Ramsay Bolton. The last shot of the show will be Robyn and his falcon sitting on the throne.

source.gif

This presupposes that Robyn is smart enough to actually find King's Landing. I remain unconvinced of this.

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2 minutes ago, OSJ said:

This presupposes that Robyn is smart enough to actually find King's Landing. I remain unconvinced of this.

Sweet Robyn wins the throne. Breast milk for everyone!

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4 minutes ago, OSJ said:

And you left out naval genius Stannis Baratheon... Baylon Greyjoy was a complete idiot, Euron is actually dangerous and knows how to win battles. Baylon knew how to attack unprotected villages and merchant ships when he could get away with it.

Euron was the one who actually won the only victory for the Greyjoys. He burned the Lannister fleet. 

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