Raziel Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, AxB said: . Why'd she watch this battle a balcony? Was she convinced she couldn't lose? Yes. And remove the Dragon from the equation, she would've been right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 8 minutes ago, Raziel said: Yes. And remove the Dragon from the equation, she would've been right. Or, at least, it would've taken a deeply prolonged siege. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrag Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 (edited) Just watched it. I’ll go back and read the comments here shortly, but my initial thought is this: A breathtaking, cruel, beautiful episode that was built to poorly. They needed a season of Danys decent into madness to match the emotional scope of that last hour. With that being said, boy that episode got me. Jon being helpless to stop the slaughter (even helpless to stop some of the northmen, who let’s face it, have more reason to hate the Lannisters and the people of King’s Landing than anyone). Arya finding the will to live. Jaime and Cersei together. All that got me. If only we had a better road to this moment. Edit: One last thought. She really did break the wheel. Edited May 14, 2019 by Jrag 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 The problem with doing a full season of descent, even Jon and Tyrion aren't THAT dumb/blind. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyWhioux Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 I, for one, am shocked --- SHOCKED -- that Captain Harry Strickland a.k.a. Cosplay Jaime did not survive. 11 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said: Or, at least, it would've taken a deeply prolonged siege. which Cersei "logically" should have been doomed to lose once she let all those peasants inside the city walls. [Edmure takes his peasants inside Riverrun to shelter them as per his feudal obligation as their overlord and all the other highborn characters (particularly Catelyn) go off on what a tremendous dumbass he is for doing this because of all the non-combatant mouths to feed it adds, and how he's played right into Tywin's ruthless hands by doing it]. There's certainly no way she can afford to feed them AND retain the Golden Company simultaneously for long. If she lets them starve they cease to be a human shield against Dany. If she kills them all when they riot they again cease to be a human shield against Dany. If she doesn't kill them all when they riot over lack of food they overthrow her and hand the city to Dany anyway. Dany could've taken the city relatively easily if she waited. But instead she razed it to take it now. (Too bad the show didn't do a better job of illustrating the former so they could better illustrate the heel turn with the latter.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrag Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Brian Fowler said: The problem with doing a full season of descent, even Jon and Tyrion aren't THAT dumb/blind. They could have had it play out in ways that are visible to the viewer, but not to the other main characters. Seems like a thing that could have worked with more time. Regardless. I was fully in camp Dany must turn heel. This episode did a great job of taking something I wanted and making me watch the gruesome actuality of it. Incredible last hour. One of the finest in the shows run in my opinion. Would have meant more under different circumstances, but the episode itself was masterful. With the proper set up... oh what could have been. This last 13 ep rush to the finish line should have been 3 whole seasons at least. Edited May 14, 2019 by Jrag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigertooth Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 3 hours ago, CSC said: The Bronn shot only hit because of Dany's hubris, figuring nothing the Lannister army had would hurt her dragons. The 2nd time was a sneak attack and Drogon was able to dodge them even at that. This time they were fully prepared, knew more or less where they would be and altered their gameplan. Not sure what is so confusing about how they would be less effective this time. I guess it's because the last time they fought, one of the dragons was killed (and they didn't play up the idea that it was because he was injured - in fact, the way it was shot made it look like it could have just as easily been Drogon's fate) and then Dany fled in fear, allowing her entire fleet to be ripped to shreds. So Dany thought they were a fearsome threat then... she didn't. And they didn't explain why her mindset changed. So yeah, people will ask questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSC Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 Her child was killed in front of her, best friend be-headed in front of her and then isolated herself while going insane. Pretty sure that’s when her mindset changed. She went from listening to others advice to unleashing the full power of her ultimate weapon, lives be damned. There’s a difference between fleeing in fear and getting the fuck out of dodge from a sneak attack and regrouping now that you’ve seen what they will be throwing at you. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 I think what's happening is that the show itself and some of the characters have fallen off in some areas so now the floodgates are open on criticism even if the complaints are nitpicks or shit that can or has been explained but not in great detail. That's what happens when a show goes from GOAT to "spectacle with average, often bad dialog" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolfan in NYC Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 I regret that I can only like that once. Anyway... If Dany is *at all* smart (she's not), she's sending a large pack of Unsullied back to Winterfell and literally dragging Sansa and Bran back to what's left of King's Landing. So when she accuses them of high treason, executing them will be quick and not lead to a protracted war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolfan in NYC Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 Also... 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beech27 Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyWhioux Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 19 hours ago, Throat said: That's not what I'm saying. Just because some Northmen are evil doesn't make it likely that Jon's entire army are city-sacking pieces of shit. I didn't see any of them bow out of murdering innocents or try to stop those who were. This is a way of life for the Dothraki. The Unsullied are unfeeling killing machines. Both groups were totally down with this shit. Were Jon and Davos really the only Northern soldiers who thought this change of plans was fucked up? 20 hours ago, The Magnificent 7 said: There are a lot of criticisms I have of this show this season, but some of the Northmen going crazy in sacking the city didn’t raise much of an eyebrow. Historically, sackings get out of hand for a myriad of reasons and although it wasn’t an attritional siege before entering the city, if you recently lost a ton of your comrades up North fighting an existential threat while these summer softies didn’t even send a thank you note or the soldiers that were promised for the fight you may let the demons get the better of you once the carnage begins. Not excusing it, but it wasn’t shocking to me some went full mayhem. all the good northern boys born and raised to love the benevolent and moral overlords of House Stark finally got their chance to stick it back to the Lannister shits who framed Ned and violated guest right to sucker-punch Robb and tried to assassinate Bran and didn't even come to help when All Life As We Know It was on the line at Winterfell. Ain't no such thing as an honorable Lannister or an innocent one. besides, the Dothraki boys are getting their rape on, so that makes it okay* if they do too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaedmc Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 Ahh yes the "everyone else is raping so why can't we" defense. One of another billion reasons to hate everyone on this show. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwoy2j Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 22 minutes ago, jaedmc said: Ahh yes the "everyone else is raping so why can't we" defense. One of another billion reasons to hate everyone on this show. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 Martin is very anti-war. There isn't another explanation needed. Some soldiers are good dudes and others are not and it doesn't matter what side of the field they are on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaedmc Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 So we're in agreement. He's saying these characters are shits. And I hate them for being shits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 I would say that most of them are degrees of terrible. The Stark family has been the Sting of the show. Big time babyfaces, odd alliances and backstabbed over and over again. And never learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyWhioux Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 6 minutes ago, jaedmc said: So we're in agreement. He's saying these characters are shits. And I hate them for being shits. Night King Should've Won 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beech27 Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 (edited) The point isn't just that some assortment of any population are good and some are evil, but also that people are products of circumstance and context. That is, everyone isn't evil but almost everyone has the capacity for it; violence breeds violence; this is what war is; this is what sacking a city is. From the Assyrians to Greeks to Romans to Medievals, you usually had to surrender before the fight even started in order to be treated well. (Or there needed to be a strategic advantage to mercy, enforced by good leadership. They probably had the former here, but not the latter. If Jon shouts to stand down in the moments of silence and Dany just hangs out, or flies right for Cersei, it all unfolds differently.) Even the beginning of resistance was taken as license to perpetrate atrocities. This is shitty! For sure. And it's good that we're mostly beyond it. It's also worth noting that "it's historically accurate!" isn't an ironclad defense when it comes to fiction. But this has always been how this universe has been depicted. Edited May 14, 2019 by Beech27 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaedmc Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 9 minutes ago, BobbyWhioux said: Night King Should've Won This is all I've ever wanted and it makes the most sense. Everyone is shit, might as well have a frozen zombie horde kill them all and wipe their memory from the universe. I don't see how this perspective isn't on brand with what the show has been doing all along. At this rate we'll probably get fucking shitbird Bran ruling the kingdom. The worst. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxB Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 My prediction for next week: Daenerys accuses Jon and Tyrion of treason, Arya tries to save them but gets eaten by Drogon, Dany decides this is all Sansa's fault and flies north to burn Winterfell, and then Bran wargs Drogon, allowing Ser Brienne the Dragonslayer to save the day. Then they find some dragon eggs and the series ends with Sansa with an "Oh shit" expression on her face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig H Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 My only prediction for the series finale is that Jon Snow winds up saying at some point, fuck all this boolsheet, and heads out to be with the free folk, which is where he really belongs. He and Tormund have a big embrace, Tormund is happy as hell, and that's how his story ends. How it ends for anyone else, I have no idea. I just want Jon to be back with the free folk at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Throat Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 I'm also hoping for Drogon warging. I don't know how the hell else they could stand a chance against Dany, plus it gives Bran something to do. I'll bet Jon gets sentenced to death and survives the dragon's flames. Although Tyrion would get sentenced too and he's probably flammable... I don't think Arya will die. I think Sandor's fatherly advice about not being consumed by revenge was meant to set her up to accept that sticking with Gendry ain't such a bad idea. They can work it out. Maybe split your time between being a lady and an assassin. Rule the Stormlands with him on weekdays and kill people on weekends. Just don't be all murder all the time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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