Brian Fowler Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 Well, everyone knew dragons existed. But the last dragon prior to Dany's died 140 some years before hers hatched. The Long Night was a touch over 8,000 years before that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.T. Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 2 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said: Well, everyone knew dragons existed. But the last dragon prior to Dany's died 146 years before hers hatched. And the books expect me to believe that someone who can survive dragon's breath and destroyed a cult of evil warlocks has a hard time evaluating the threat presented by an army of the undead.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 1 minute ago, J.T. said: And the books expect me to believe that someone who can survive dragon's breath and destroyed a cult of evil warlocks has a hard time evaluating the threat presented by an army of the undead.... She had three dragons and arguably the two strongest armies in the known world. Threat assessment has not exactly been a strong point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 1 minute ago, J.T. said: And the books expect me to believe that someone who can survive dragon's breath and destroyed a cult of evil warlocks has a hard time evaluating the threat presented by an army of the undead.... It's not about the threat of the undead. It's about jeopardizing everything she had fought for, everything she wanted, and about trusting Jon (who won't take the knee) by engaging in a two front war (or abandoning the front she actually came for). It's not about the threat beyond the wall. It's about everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 She was basically "we'll take care of yourself little undead problem after I win the real war. If you bend the knee." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.T. Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 16 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said: She was basically "we'll take care of yourself little undead problem after I win the real war. If you bend the knee." Her first reaction was outright disbelief. Tyrian had to vouch for Jon's character before she transitioned to arrogance. 21 minutes ago, Matt D said: It's not about the threat of the undead. It's about jeopardizing everything she had fought for, everything she wanted, and about trusting Jon (who won't take the knee) by engaging in a two front war (or abandoning the front she actually came for). It's not about the threat beyond the wall. It's about everything else. And the funny thing is that Jon's request prima facea really is the wrong thing to do. The most prudent thing would be to knock Cersei out of the frame and then deal with the Night King, but the x factor is that if the Night King breeches the Wall during the war with Cersei, your two front war becomes a one front war very quickly with the North having already fallen. This is why the events of the last episode bother me. It was almost as if the Night King held Jon and Company in check as bait and he knew that Dany and (more importantly) her dragons were on the way. Two powerful and influential adversaries down for the price of one or at least the opportunity to kill and reanimate a dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 Well, yes, because Jon's story is the equivalent of us being told Zeus is coming down from Mount Olympus. Even in a world with magic, 8,000 years is a long time to keep believing something is coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.T. Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 2 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said: Even in a world with magic, 8,000 years is a long time to keep believing something is coming. I don't know about Dany, but the existence of the Wall and knowing why it was created would cause me to soften my tone. As omniscient and omnipresent reader of the novels, having an all seeing POV can be a horrible thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigertooth Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 Interesting that you mention that the Night King might have been keeping Jon & crew as bait. I was wondering why a) the Night King would bother stopping his entire army's march just to hang out and glare at them indefinitely b) if they have range weapons, like ice spears, why didn't they just pick off the crew from a distance? So it makes sense that they didn't want the group dead... except that once they were able to attack, the army of the dead kinda seemed like they were trying to kill them. I guess it would make sense that NK just wanted to capture his staring contest buddy. I'd have to rewatch to see if the dead seemed more like they were trying to kill or capture Jon. It's clearly true that the dead didn't manage to drown Jon, so we got the second episode in a row with a drowning nearfall that nobody bought as a finish. And while I dig Benjen generally, it was a bit sad that his last-minute rescue (his signature spot) happened minutes after Dany's far more spectacular last-minute rescue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVA Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 3 hours ago, Matt D said: Hell, even in the last page of this thread, I'm not sure Eva believes they exist. He thinks it's an Al Gore/China conspiracy and regulations against White Walkers are mainly hurting Hot Pie's small business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig H Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 *shrugs* I thought the episode was cool as hell. It's a little too fanservice-y compared to everything that's come before it, the idea to capture a wight to bring it to Cersei as proof was stupid considering they really didn't have any sort of exit strategy, but man, was all of it really freaking cool to see. I loved all of the dialogue between the characters, loved the fighting, shed a tear for Thoros and his top knot that wasn't fooling anyone, shed more tears for Viserion, marked out for the stare down between Jon and the Night King, and now it appears nearly everyone is on board with the dead being a threat. Brian is also right. All of my rewatch of the series has left stuff fresh in my memory. No one believed the White Walkers were real. Hell, even the Night's Watch didn't think they were real. Dudes in the Night's Watch treated Jon and Sam talking about them as if they were taking crazy pills. Then later on more and more became believers, although I'm guessing friends of Jon, like Edd, probably believed whatever he said from the start. To me, it always felt like the series was building towards this undead threat becoming too big to deal with because everyone else was always way too busy with their own squabbles. I just took it as GRRM's comparison to climate change. Basically everyone feuds with each other until it's too late or nearly too late. I just wonder where we go from here. Do they take care of the White Walker threat first and then it's the showdown for the Iron Throne, or does Cersei make her play to solidify the Iron Throne for herself while the war against the White Walkers rages on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawful Metal Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 I think the truncated nature of this season has been more harmful than beneficial. The Kings Landing trip was hurt the most, I think. That could have been its own episode. Jon and Dany could've had longer and shown more, I don't know, chemistry. Other places, Oldtown, curing Jorah of Grayscale, the trip beyond the wall, the battle of Highgarden. Hell, they could've explained more of the whole capture a wight plan that would actually make sense. I can't explain how anyone would have any faith in Cersei doing the right thing here. Especially Tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 How the Night King got the chains on Viserion #GameOfThrones pic.twitter.com/rr5F8bf2WE — King Jon Snow (@LordSnow) August 21, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwoy2j Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 42 minutes ago, Craig H said: Brian is also right. All of my rewatch of the series has left stuff fresh in my memory. No one believed the White Walkers were real. Hell, even the Night's Watch didn't think they were real. Dudes in the Night's Watch treated Jon and Sam talking about them as if they were taking crazy pills. Then later on more and more became believers, although I'm guessing friends of Jon, like Edd, probably believed whatever he said from the start. To me, it always felt like the series was building towards this undead threat becoming too big to deal with because everyone else was always way too busy with their own squabbles. I just took it as GRRM's comparison to climate change. Basically everyone feuds with each other until it's too late or nearly too late. I binged the show in May/June and you're right, nobody believed in the WW. Tyrion even chided Jon about "grumpkins and snarks" when he was traveling to The Wall with him. The NW was seen as a joke at that point. A place for disgraced lords, bastard sons and rapists and thieves who wanted to keep all of their parts intact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrag Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 The Lannisters are definitely struggling the most with the shortened season. They really should have stuck to 10 episodes. This season vastly improves with a Tyrion/Bronn reunion scene and the Tyrion and Jamie meeting/negotiation set up being a full episode. It would have allowed for more nuance in the crazy plan. It's a terrible idea, but it would have made much more sense if Jamie requested that they bring a wight to Cersie instead of Tyrion making the suggestion. 1. Because Tyrion should know better. 2. Because it would fit with Jamie being the only one who wont accept that Cersie is beyond reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrag Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 Still loving the show, but it's been cheapened a little bit. All the character moments in this episode were still great, but the intentional vagueness about the passage of time really caught up to them at the end of this one. I don't mind a quicker paced story, but this was more than a pacing problem. How many days were they out there on the island? How fast is the raven? How far were they from the Wall. Etc. Etc. I guess it's only frustrating to me because it's a wholly unnecessary confusion. Dany could have decided she needed to fly North on her own without the letter or the Dragons could have sensed Jon was in danger yada yada yada. A couple things they did right that aren't getting enough credit: They DID take dragonglass north of the wall. Jorah is definitely stabbing people with a black dagger in this episode. Jon obviously doesn't need the dragonglass and Beric can kill wights just fine with the flaming sword. The Hound also tries to go without dragonglass (opting for the warhammer instead), but the results are mixed and some of the wights don't stay down for him. I thought the detail on that stuff was well done. I'm also in the camp that the Night King was setting a trap for Dany and the dragons. There is a screenshot floating around that shows the White Walkers holding three spears as they look down on Jon and crew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 They were definitely setting a trap. The only thing that the Night King is really concerned about is dragons. They are the force that can stop the white walkers. Again that's why I keep saying this show was always going to be dragons and zombies. It's always been about winter coming and dragons being reborn. It's always been about dragon glass and Valerian steel. For much of the time all that stuff was background noise and the viewers were supposed to be caught up in the political theater much like the characters themselves. This is a war that humans aren't supposed to be prepared for. It's not in their nature to band together. Even the Maesters have buried the truth and they don't want Sam doing anything but playing the game they are all playing. I think we will see that with Cersei this week. I don't see any way she says "you know what, you're right about this WW issue, lets take them out." She is going to want to use this as an opportunity. Just like Littlefinger couldn't give a shit about the war beyond the wall. Neither take it seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawful Metal Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 Theory: One of the faces in Arya's bag looked like Littlefinger. She's already killed him and has been impersonating him to get Sansa to incriminate herself. When Sansa doesn't, Arya will reveal herself. And Sansa will freak the fuck out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 I *think* that face was Black Walder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawful Metal Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 Boo. Now you're gonna tell me that Jon Snow didn't warg into Long Claw when he fell into the frozen lake. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 1 hour ago, Lawful Metal said: Theory: One of the faces in Arya's bag looked like Littlefinger. She's already killed him and has been impersonating him to get Sansa to incriminate herself. When Sansa doesn't, Arya will reveal herself. And Sansa will freak the fuck out. I am always for Rollin Hand-style peel away mask reveals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 One of my friends thinks Bran will be able to warg into the zombie Dragon. Dunno how that would tie into the popular " Bran is the Night King" theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raziel Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 Bran warging into Zombie Viceron is probably the Deus ex Machina for that problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Cincinnati Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 3 hours ago, odessasteps said: I am always for Rollin Hand-style peel away mask reveals. Alternatively, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigertooth Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 So if the Night King's plan was to use Jon & Co as bait, when did he come up with that plan? Did he know they were coming? Did he plan to encounter them right by the semi-frozen lake so he could trap them? If so, why did he let the dead attack when they did? Did he know Dany was nearly there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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