Brian Fowler Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 Just now, Niners Fan in CT said: Now I'm really speculating but I'd bet George definitely thought about an ice dragon. An ice dragon is an idea I've seen thrown around for years. Maybe he even thought that Night King would set a trap to obtain one which I think is ultimately what happened. Now, how we arrived to that happening is probably all on the showrunners but I only give them leeway because they have so little time to get from point to point to point. He wrote a book called The Ice Dragon 36 years ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 1 minute ago, Brian Fowler said: He wrote a book called The Ice Dragon 36 years ago but did you see it happening in these books i mean? I've seen it tossed around for ages Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 Yeah, everyone did. There are (were?) two very popular theories, either that there is a dragon in The Wall, or one under the hot springs of Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVA Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 4 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said: I can't follow you on that man. Everything always pointed to it being the real conflict. The fighting was a distraction that made the Andals more vulnerable. It's why the legends of the Last Hero, The Prince(ss) Who Was Promised, and Azor Ahai keep coming up. It's why magic suddenly waking up, in the forms of dragons, wildfyre, and Wights mattered. It's why he's been steadily building up two potential candidates for those heroic roles. Along the way, he deconstructed traditional fantasy. But what's the point of deconstruction if you aren't going to reconstruct it at the end? And, again, there is significance in how the story first started. I'm not saying these things were never going to play a role in the end, I'm just saying, if you spend 4 million pages tortuously plotting out the human drama, only for everything to be resolved Because Magic, then that is fucking terrible and you should be jailed. That's all. It HAS to come back to the human conflict in the end, or it's just a fundamentally broken story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 Just now, EVA said: I'm not saying these things were never going to play a role in the end, I'm just saying, if you spend 4 million pages tortuously plotting out the human drama, only for everything to be resolved Because Magic, then that is fucking terrible and you should be jailed. That's all. It HAS to come back to the human conflict in the end, or it's just a fundamentally broken story. Well, I don't think everything will be magically fixed, because I don't think there's any chance it has a completely happy ending. But I think the climax is the fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 Human conflict was all over that episode. Trust, sacrifice, grief. It's all over what just happened and what's about to come next with Cersei and Tyrion and Jaime. We've got a ton of very conflicted humans here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyWhioux Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 12 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said: Although there is still a way to pay all that off and still be completely subversive: The Knight's King winning. He's already established himself as an elite quarterback so he's halfway there [but yeah. instead of all the rival peoples burying their ancient mistrusts and deep grudges and coming together against the common enemy, they continue to squabble among themselves, give in to their mistrust and grudges, and get destroyed. Divided We Fall.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVA Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 18 minutes ago, Matt D said: The GOT Wire ended last season with Cersei on the throne having lost everything to get it. She won the Game of Thrones. Welcome to A Song of Ice and Fire. Im pretty sure this is objectively false. There was still a king in the North and on the Iron Islands and a queen due to at Dragonstone at that point. Possibly more than that, depending on your views on what titles Olenna and Ellaria rightfully held ( which even the show did not seem clear on). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
username Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 I will likely never read the books, so whatever eventually is or isn't written there doesn't concern me at this point. I am fine with an eventual humans vs dead/fire vs ice battle to end it all. The problem is that the last two episodes have had more bad writing than previous entire seasons of the show. There have still been good moments, I thought there was a lot of nice little character touches in the first half of last night's episode. This plan is dumb in a borderline hackish way. The plan itself is nonsensical, even if it works there is no reason for anyone to believe it'll actually work to convince Cersei of anything. They didn't bring horses or ravens with them north of the wall for no apparent reason. There is no reason for any lake north of the wall to only be partly frozen by this point, and no real reason for that to stop the wights as there are enough of them there to literally fill the lake and have the remaining ones walk atop of them to that little island. The amount of time it has taken to do anything this season has been stretched to the limits of credulity (I've mostly been able to live with it so far), this week was just inexcusably dumb. We had a long lost character come back for about 52 seconds to ride in on a horse, put Jon on it and say "there's no time" for him to get on himself. The Arya stuff seems very out of character but I'm willing to give it time to see if it pays off, the rest of that episode was just dumb. I still want to see next week's finale, and I still want to see next season. I just hope they are better than what we've gotten these past couple weeks, because they've been great moments with utter mediocrity in between. If this was as good as the show had been up until this point there'd probably be half as many posts here and viewers in total. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 Also, and I know the real answer is "cgi costs money", why the hell does Jon not bring Ghost anywhere? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyWhioux Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 2 hours ago, Brian Fowler said: Also, and I know the real answer is "cgi costs money", why the hell does Jon not bring Ghost anywhere? Dragons = Hosses Direwolves = Cruiserweights Benoiff and Weiss = Vince 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.T. Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 7 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said: So what you're saying is that a random group of assembled folks catching one like a squirrel in the woods, bringing it all the way to King's Landing, and then presenting it as proof that they are an unstoppable army to an already disillusioned woman doesn't make sense? I can understand Cersei's reluctance to believe, but I was baffled by Dany's. It's not like she doesn't command dragons or hasn't faced practicioners of magic before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 I think Dany didn't so much not believe as not understand the threat level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.T. Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 23 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said: I think Dany didn't so much not believe as not understand the threat level. There is a gigantic wall of ice in the North spanning the length of the continent and manning the Night's Watch has gone on for generations. Also folklore aside, it should be fairly common knowledge that the Wall isn't just there to serve as a barrier to keep the Wildlings isolated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 And the threat has been dormant for centuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.T. Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 8 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said: And the threat has been dormant for centuries. But it exists nonetheless and the messenger coming to tell you that Winter Is Coming is the fucking King In The North himself, not Ralph the crazy drunk Camp Crystal Lake doomsayer mother fucker from the Friday the 13th movies. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 I think the idea that they need Cersei on board is fine because they could definitely use her forces, they kind of need a united Westeros but even then what they do not need is Cersei to also be trying to fuck them while they are busy with the Night King. The issue was some of the execution of the plan. Time stuff didn't bother me, that can all be explained away. I just felt there could have been a better way to capturing a wight than what we saw. Even so I think it was a great episode. I'm very much looking forward to the finale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.T. Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 I loved the lets capture a wight and bring it back as proof plan in the most stupidest D&D unpublished game module sense, but I agree that the plot files in the face of the established mythology from the television show. We won't even bring the novels into the argument since the storyline from here on out is off the reservation.. Nearly everyone in central Westeros is familiar with the folklore about the Wall and accepts the existence of the White Walkers as fact, so them amassing an army can't be too much of a quantum leap. The Wall has not been properly manned in centuries and no one really gives a shit about the Wildlings and Westeros beyond the wall has been consumed in its on strife anyway, so it isn't folly to think that a massive army of the undead could be on the move with no one in the South being the wiser. Especially when the person delivering the message that death is on the march is a fucking king and not some crazy yokel covered in sheep excrement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 One of the major points of the entire series is that nobody accepted the White Walkers as fact. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.T. Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 23 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said: One of the major points of the entire series is that nobody accepted the White Walkers as fact. This is one of the problems I have with the television show. The dilation of time does not allow us to appreciate the power creep of high magic into the world. In a world where dragons exist and men are being brought back from the dead or wielding flaming swords and witches are popping shadow demons out of their nethers, what's not to accept about an army of the dead massing in the North? Especially when the event is chronicled as historic fact rather than folklore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 It's literally all over the first two or three seasons. Nobody believes they exist. It's stories told by Old Nan at bedtime, Tyrion compared them to grumpkins, even Ned Stark didn't even consider it possible before beheading the deserter. When the Watch begged for help, we saw nearly everyone scoff at the very idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.T. Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 8 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said: It's literally all over the first two or three seasons. Nobody believes they exist. It's stories told by Old Nan at bedtime, Tyrion compared them to grumpkins, even Ned Stark didn't even consider it possible before beheading the deserter. When the Watch begged for help, we saw nearly everyone scoff at the very idea. I always got the impression that was more of a "I hope they don't exist" kinda thing rather than outright disbelief similar to the way people openly say they don't believe in ghosts, but tend not to enter spooky houses just in case. This and meshing it with the idea of being doomed to repeat the history you fail to remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 I don't see it that way at all. In fact, I think the lack of belief in the walkers is literally the most important part of the entire story. The Long Night is much much longer ago then any of the other history we get. 8,000 before the Targaryen conquest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.T. Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 1 hour ago, Brian Fowler said: In fact, I think the lack of belief in the walkers is literally the most important part of the entire story. Of the books? Yes, I agree, but the television show has not done a really good job of relegating the Walkers to the realm of folklore. The very existence of the Wall is almost evidentiary of the existence of the Walkers. I blame myself for part of that perception. I think this is where being familiar with the books has worked against me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 I'd say that some of that is the shift to a more general viewing audience, but it is certainly a big thing in the first book as well. Reading this 15 years ago, the dragons at the end of book one were not a sure thing. Certainly, the people on the ground are much more concerned about their daily lives getting disrupted. Hell, even in the last page of this thread, I'm not sure Eva believes they exist. He thinks it's an Al Gore/China conspiracy and regulations against White Walkers are mainly hurting Hot Pie's small business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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