piranesi Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I kind of think maybe his fearlessness is a part of having already experienced the pain, process, and outcome of death. And maybe a little logical given the whole "The God(s) brought you back so you really have no control over what happens to you. You will live as long as they need you and you won't die before that." That's got to be a little liberating. Also in terms of purpose. He has none. He has no future or desire that does not involve protecting other people. Remnants of being a bastard, a crow, a corpse, and seeing everyone you remember of your past lives slaughtered. The guy is a shell. I'm interested, actually, to see what is left of the honor and morality Jon Snow of the 1st season, and the "learning to live free or die" Jon from beyond the wall. Jon Snow as warden of the north now is not the same Jon Snow everyone fell in love with. In some ways he's less. There's less under there. They'll probably just make him the same old lovable emo dude again. But they might not and that could be interesting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.H. Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 So now that I finally got to sit and watch Bastard Bowl... My lord that was some epic shit. Add to that we do not need Lady Stoneheart because Sansa earned that title by getting her revenge and getting the coldest line of the night. If you don't think that Littlefinger isn't going to demand Sansa marry him for his help so he ends up Lord of Winterfell then you underestimate Littlefinger. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 1 hour ago, J.H. said: If you don't think that Littlefinger isn't going to demand Sansa marry him for his help so he ends up Lord of Winterfell then you underestimate Littlefinger. Littlefinger has been oddly sidelined for the past couple of seasons, considering that he really was the driving force behind more of the plot's happenings than practically any other single character. Petyr Baelish was the mastermind behind the murder of Jon Arryn, might have had something to do with Robert's death too, betrayed Ned and put Joffrey on the throne, plotted to turn Renly and Stannis against each other to their mutual destruction, convinces the Tyrells to join the Lannisters and help win the battle of Blackwater, prevents Sansa's marriage to Loras, orchestrates the murder of Joffrey, kills Lysa, gains total control over young lord Robin, makes a pact with the Boltons via Sansa's marriage, and spills the beans about Lancel's affair with Cersei to the septons. He's the ruler of both Harrenhal and the Vale, and now arguably has Winterfell in his sights as well. That's a LOT of influence over huge chunks of the plot in Westeros, yet he's barely had anything to do and seemingly vanished out of the story for huge chunks of seasons 5 and 6. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranesi Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 4 minutes ago, Jingus said: Littlefinger has been oddly sidelined for the past couple of seasons, considering that he really was the driving force behind more of the plot's happenings than practically any other single character. Petyr Baelish was the mastermind behind the murder of Jon Arryn, might have had something to do with Robert's death too, betrayed Ned and put Joffrey on the throne, plotted to turn Renly and Stannis against each other to their mutual destruction, convinces the Tyrells to join the Lannisters and help win the battle of Blackwater, prevents Sansa's marriage to Loras, orchestrates the murder of Joffrey, kills Lysa, gains total control over young lord Robin, makes a pact with the Boltons via Sansa's marriage, and spills the beans about Lancel's affair with Cersei to the septons. He's the ruler of both Harrenhal and the Vale, and now arguably has Winterfell in his sights as well. That's a LOT of influence over huge chunks of the plot in Westeros, yet he's barely had anything to do and seemingly vanished out of the story for huge chunks of seasons 5 and 6. I think there is a little bit of a time issue. I'm unclear on a lot of the timeline and I think it makes some people seem like they are inactive for longer than they are. Your list of stuff keeps him quite busy right up to Sansa's escape, which was...well, we're not sure how long after he left her with Ramsay...and then all of season six...well, we're not sure again are we, it could only be a month or so? Maybe even a few weeks. So in real-time terms he's only been out of the loop for as long as it took him to gather the Knights of the Vale, entice Sansa to use them, and wait for the battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrag Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 3 hours ago, piranesi said: I kind of think maybe his fearlessness is a part of having already experienced the pain, process, and outcome of death. And maybe a little logical given the whole "The God(s) brought you back so you really have no control over what happens to you. You will live as long as they need you and you won't die before that." That's got to be a little liberating. Also in terms of purpose. He has none. He has no future or desire that does not involve protecting other people. Remnants of being a bastard, a crow, a corpse, and seeing everyone you remember of your past lives slaughtered. The guy is a shell. I'm interested, actually, to see what is left of the honor and morality Jon Snow of the 1st season, and the "learning to live free or die" Jon from beyond the wall. Jon Snow as warden of the north now is not the same Jon Snow everyone fell in love with. In some ways he's less. There's less under there. They'll probably just make him the same old lovable emo dude again. But they might not and that could be interesting. Another aspect that ties into this. It could simply be madness. If we are right about Jon's parentage, a coin has been flipped. The battle itself was predictable, but Jon's actions really do open up so many possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I prefer "no fucks left to give" Jon over season 1 Jon. But we needed season 1 Jon. I enjoyed the journey. But this is what he is destined to be and it's great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranesi Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 If you think about it on the D&D scale, Jon Snow's development has been pretty astounding. He started out learning from Ned about loyalty yes, but also about codes of duty and honor that were bound to the rules of civil society, such as it is in Westeros. He went to the wall filled with those ideals: Lawful Good. At the wall and beyond it he learned, both from the fucked up system of the Night's watch and from the very different codes and morals of the free folk to see through what of Ned's teaching was bullshit and what was real. It reinforced loyalty and a basic sense of justice but overturned a lot of his belief in the social rules. So moving to Neutral Good. Then confronting even larger truths that were bigger even than the war between crows nd widlings and needing to fight a war that most of the world refused to believe was happening he was forced to take essentially outlaw measures, becoming a criminal in the eyes of the very watch he was leading: Chaotic good. Suffering the betrayal and consequences of that, learning another truth, that all his morality and honor and the truth of his cause was repaid with failure and murder he came back changed again, not perhaps believing in anything, he finally movies the other side of the scale: neutral neutral? And now confronted with a new set of outrages, a more personal set of goals to fight for, and seeing and living through the utter carnage that came from trying to live by any ideal whatsoever, and coming through it essentially berserk even to the point of tacitly offering up his enemy to Sansa so she could enjoy a proper mauling of him, he is what now? Chaotic neutral. Not many steps left to work his way through the whole system. Although I don't see him ever going evil, who knows. He hasn't much left to lose I guess. Sansa? To watch his sacrifices lead to others he views as corrupt ascending to power (Littlefinger?)? This is in comparison to a lot of other characters who have remained essentially the same. Dany, for instance, I think has the same moral code and moral shortcomings she has always had. Likewise Ayra. Tyrion has been pretty stalwart as well, neutral good from the beginning. Jaime had a big development but then seems to alter his internal belief system based on which woman in his life he's nearest to. Brienne brings out the Lawful good side and Cersei the chaotic evil side. But I kind of get the sense now that he's always been like that and the season 2 stuff wasn't really a "development" just a pattern he falls into. He's a moral chameleon. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.T. Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 14 hours ago, odessasteps said: By the time its an issue, we may learn Jon's heritage is not what everyone thinks it is. I honestly believe that will be the season finale cliffhanger. Jon will return to Winterfell with Sansa and find out who his parents really are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Sweetser Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 PIggybacking on my previous question, what happens to the title "Warden of the North" with the extinction of House Bolton? Does Sansa technically inherit it or does it not work that way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigertooth Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 As Baelish dropped off Sansa with House Bolton, he said that when Stannis overtakes Winterfell, Sansa would be Warden. Of course, he also made a deal with Cersei to make him the Warden. Since Cersei has little power in King's Landing atm, I imagine it's Sansa, though who knows what deal she may have made with Baelish to get his support. Obviously even if there wasn't an explicit deal, Baelish didn't bring in the Knights of the Vale out of the kindness of his heart. Moving to Meereen: What was the point of Tyrion freeing the other two dragons if they ended up just hanging out in the dungeon as if they were still chained up until the point that Dany came back, when she would have surely freed them anyway? I guess it'll pay off with some Tyrion/dragon stuff in the future, but it seems weird at the moment. Were people bringing food and water to the unchained dragons in the basement? Also odd: when Dany came back last episode, it was nighttime, right? She came in, and her dragon flew off for some reason. Then they just waited around all night getting bombarded before she decided to tear shit up in the morning. Oh well, at least that meant we got good lighting for the dragon attack. Grey Worm slicing the two guys who didn't kneel was pretty great. As was the wailing horde of Dothraki. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.T. Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 41 minutes ago, Michael Sweetser said: PIggybacking on my previous question, what happens to the title "Warden of the North" with the extinction of House Bolton? Does Sansa technically inherit it or does it not work that way? In real life, she could claim the title if she had support of the vassals. Otherwise she'd be regent and her husband would inherit the title when she got married. Since we're dealing with fantasy, the correct answer is whatever the writers decide. Most likely it will turn out to be the above as Littlefinger is sure to have made a union of houses as the cost of sending the Knights of the Vale to aid Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I wonder if one of the whole points of the story is Westeros becoming matriarchal or at worst not strictly patriarchal. Dany sitting on the iron throne, Sansa as ward of the north, Yara in charge of the Iron Islands, whats her name in Dorne, ... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimo Necro Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 It's a Women's revolution, Cersei playing the role of Stephanie McMahon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WholeFnMachine Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Thought everyone might find this article interesting https://www.buzzfeed.com/andyneuenschwander/15-facts-about-the-battle-of-the-bastards?bffbmain&utm_term=.edAbadBpE#.fdD1GMLmj 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hail Sabin Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 10 hours ago, Ultimo Necro said: It's a Women's revolution, Cersei playing the role of Stephanie McMahon. She does really like to cut people's balls off! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.T. Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 21 hours ago, odessasteps said: I wonder if one of the whole points of the story is Westeros becoming matriarchal or at worst not strictly patriarchal. Dany sitting on the iron throne, Sansa as ward of the north, Yara in charge of the Iron Islands, whats her name in Dorne, ... This also had occurred to me. Coincidental patterns are not coincidental. I watched BastardBowl again yesterday. Obviously Tyrion did not know what happened to Theon in Ramsay's company otherwise the I'm Not The Only Halfman In This Room joke would've written itself. Also, I remembered this discussion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lcx8gAM6wM so that further reinforces my doubts about Littlefinger coming to the rescue being a good thing. I would not put it past Petyr Baelish to play the Lannisters, but he also wouldn't ride to the rescue without being well compensated and that probably means marrying Sansa and becoming Warden of the North. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brysynner Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 17 hours ago, Ultimo Necro said: It's a Women's revolution, Cersei playing the role of Stephanie McMahon. Well Vince did want to run an angle where Shane and Steph were in a relationship together Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyWhioux Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 On 6/22/2016 at 5:13 AM, J.T. said: This also had occurred to me. Coincidental patterns are not coincidental. I watched BastardBowl again yesterday. Obviously Tyrion did not know what happened to Theon in Ramsay's company otherwise the I'm Not The Only Halfman In This Room joke would've written itself. Also, I remembered this discussion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lcx8gAM6wM so that further reinforces my doubts about Littlefinger coming to the rescue being a good thing. I would not put it past Petyr Baelish to play the Lannisters, but he also wouldn't ride to the rescue without being well compensated and that probably means marrying Sansa and becoming Warden of the North. Exactly. It's not a good thing. As wrestling fans, we should know the difference between a clean win an and winning because a run-in cost your opponent the match. This was the latter. Jon's forces got wiped out and he almost died himself. Littlefinger was probably hoping a long enough wait would give Jon enough time to "die heroically", but even without that, waiting until attrition made his army a non-factor relative to his is close enough. Military wise, Ramsay kicked Jon's ass. He took the bait, his plan got ruined, and his forces took massive losses. They would've been wiped out, had not Littlefinger bailed them out with a run-in. Jon and Sansa didn't rally the north and take their home back so much as Littlefinger gave it to them. He hit Ramsay with a chair and dragged Jon on top of Ramsay for the pinfall. And Jon/Sansa are beholden to him for it. [Well okay visually Jon got to finish Ramsay off personally with a ground-and-pound, but you know what I mean]. He laid the groundwork for this several episodes back in this season, last time he talked to Sansa directly. 1] Sansa is (rightly, by now) paranoid about depending on "trusted" others to protect her. 2] Not deeply explored in the show but semi-hinted during their reunion: of all the Stark siblings, Jon and Sansa were the least close growing up. They started out in this season with Sansa apologizing to Jon for past instances of "being an ass to [him]." They don't have the base level of warmth and trust that you'd see with, say, Jon and Arya, or Jon and Robb, or Jon and Bran and/or Rickon. Jon's a bastard and doesn't fit in with Sansa's sheltered (spoiled?) world view she started the series with. They're not "reconnecting", they're connecting for the first time, just about. Jon/Sansa is, then, the pair of Stark siblings Littlefinger would best be able to drive a wedge between. And that's exactly what he does when he starts talking up how Jon's army is not necessarily hers, and implying that Jon would double cross her. Jon wouldn't. We the audience know Jon wouldn't. Sansa doesn't really know Jon wouldn't. So with her fragile trust eroded just that much, she withholds the info from Jon. Brienne (think of her as a physical representation of Sansa's conscience, in a way) calls her out for this, later. Sansa doesn't have a good answer. Later, Sansa sends Brienne away to recruit The Blackfish. Littlefinger told Sansa about that opportunity, too. Separated from her conscience and with that bit of a wedge between her and her brother, Sansa goes all in on doing things Littlefinger's way. Wittingly or no, she plays right into Littlefinger's hands. His army isn't hers either. And the army that would be hers (through Jon) is wiped out. She is back to being dependant on Littlefinger, and now Jon is too if he survives Bastardbowl (and if he doesn't quite make it, even better, from Littlefinger's perspective). Any reward LF might request for this service, Sansa basically has to give him as it stands right now. Maybe she didn't have much choice, since Ramsay, like a good heel, would never have fought that battle if he didn't think he knew he'd win (superior numbers, planned psychological edge on Jon with using Rickon as bait) and so if The Vale showed up early Ramsay would've holed up in Winterfell from the start. Sansa knew this about Ramsay. So she had to make sure Ramsay didn't know rThe Vale sneak attack was coming, and she figured (probably correctly) that Jon would've given that away if he knew, so Jon couldn't know it was coming either (and thus Jon's army had to function as bait for Ramsays, and take heavy losses). The question is, did Sansa fully get duped by Littlefinger? Or is she being more complicit with Littlefinger (either genuinely or because she's utimately swerving him, too, and when will that happen). The shots of her smugging up with Littlefinger and smirking as she walked away from Ramsay being ripped apart by his own dogs sure could function as hints that Sansa is going to double cross Jon (and at least one person I talk show with thinks this is coming, now). Will Jon be mad about not being told, since the heavy losses jeopardize EVERYTHING from his perspective (White Walkers are coming) and deepen the wedge between Jon and Sansa for Littlefinger's benefit. Or, is Sansa actually about to swerve Littlefinger, not yet tipping that hand to Jon, or us the audience even, yet? But you're right, because this isn't a clean win and take back of Winterfell for Team Stark, yet. Sansa could make it one if she double crosses Littlefinger at this point, now that she's used him to get what she wants. Though that requires her first stealing the Vale army from him (possible, she might have a way with her cousin Robin, and Lord Royce would certainly be happy to get rid of Littlefinger) or find a new one somewhere (unlikely, there doesn't seem to be one). To truly get their home back for themselves, Jon and Sansa have to really work together. And Littlefinger, of course, is trying to prevent them from being willing/able to do that, except through/under him. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raziel Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 That's the difference between Book Sansa and TV Sansa. Book Sansa has *waaaaay* more sway over Robin than Littlefinger does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranesi Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 I had to pause the show because my wife had to pee. So far this is 100% fan porn and I'm loving every second of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranesi Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 Everything was so great I can almost forget how pissed I am Margery didn't escape. She literally achieved nothing. Another GoT trick where the seduce into thinking someone is important enough that they won't die until they actually do something and then they don't. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVA Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 It honestly took me a while to recover from Margaery getting incinerated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hail Sabin Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 It did for me as well but then I was trying to figure out what speedboat Arya took to get where she is. At the end that thought passed with how the Fuck Varys got on that boat so fast. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 Because they skipped ahead to the starting of the main event. They've been playing with time a lot but I thought this instance it was obvious that there were major jumps. They just trimmed a whole lot of fat off the show in one episode. And it was amazing. This week and last week's is probably the best 1-2 combination in the show's run. Snow zombies vs. Jon Snow, Cersei vs. Highgarden/Dorn, and likely Jon/Daenerys vs. snow zombies as the ultimate showdown. Can't wait. edit: btw, all hail the true leader of the north! 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 Cersei finally got her checkmate on the High Sparrow... and it cost her the last thing she cared about. Arya finally took a name off her list Pieces positioned. Anyone else get a "Michael Corleone settles all family business" vibe from the stuff leading up to the explosion? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts