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UFC 202: Diaz vs. McGregor II (8/20/2016) - Las Vegas, NV (T-Mobile Arena)

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Either way I commend you on calling out that only Sean Sherk remembers Sean Sherk.

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1 minute ago, Setsuna said:

Yeah I can't really dispute that. I didn't mean immediate title shot or anything but even one less significant win on your way to the title can be a life-saver.

Well yeah, he can probably get a title shot by virtue of being the biggest draw in the division if someone got injured or failed a USADA test. I don't think people would complain as much as they would about the semantics of who was ranked through 1-5.

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33 minutes ago, Setsuna said:

He was lightweight champion.

You're right, the alpha-champions will always be remembered, As it stands now, will Dos Anjos be better remembered in 15 years than Diaz, I'm not sure. Titles change hands quickly, unless you go on a major run you're likely to get lost in the historical legacy shuffle.

 

Jim Braddock got a big-budget Hollywood movie, where are the movies for Joe Louis and Jack Dempsey?  How about Larry Holmes?  Can we make it a musical?

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11 minutes ago, Setsuna said:

Either way I commend you on calling out that only Sean Sherk remembers Sean Sherk.

DEATH TO THOSE WHO MOCK THE MUSCLE SHARK!

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Just now, Mistah Na1m4rk said:

Jim Braddock got a big-budget Hollywood movie, where are the movies for Joe Louis and Jack Dempsey?  How about Larry Holmes?  Can we make it a musical?

Honestly, why isn't there a Joe Louis or Jack Dempsey movie?  Are we trying to say we need a movie like Southpaw more than we need a Joe Louis movie?  The Joe Louis movie would be a combination of a civil rights movie, a biopic, a Nazi hating movie, and a sports movie.  There are so many fair to middling boxing movies, but no modern, big budget Dempsey, Louis, Sugar Ray Robinson, Archie Moore, or even Jack fucking Johnson movies.

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14 minutes ago, supremebve said:

Honestly, why isn't there a Joe Louis or Jack Dempsey movie? 

Well to be fair there were some low-budget low-effort ones previously.  There was even a Dempsey made-for-TV movie in the 80s starring Treat Williams.

I'm actually writing a Dempsey screenplay focusing on what I always found to be the most interesting aspect of his life - his years as a migrant hobo laborer in Colorado and Utah prior to becoming the biggest sports celebrity in the world.  Dempsey learned his vicious, violent style of fighting not just from saloon brawls and poorly-organized prizefights in mining towns, but from fending off the predations that naturally occurred when you had a teenage boy traveling alone surrounded by lower-stratus males.  To give you some idea of what Dempsey had to contend with, you might want to refresh your memory of the original context of the famous hobo song, Big Rock Candy Mountain.  

Fun stuff all-around and it keeps me off the street.

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We all know that you're too raw for the streets.

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11 minutes ago, supremebve said:

Honestly, why isn't there a Joe Louis or Jack Dempsey movie?  Are we trying to say we need a movie like Southpaw more than we need a Joe Louis movie?  The Joe Louis movie would be a combination of a civil rights movie, a biopic, a Nazi hating movie, and a sports movie.  There are so many fair to middling boxing movies, but no modern, big budget Dempsey, Louis, Sugar Ray Robinson, Archie Moore, or even Jack fucking Johnson movies.

To be fair, Cinderella Man didn't exactly set the box office ablaze. 

Honestly, I would love a movie about the color line era HW boxers (Langford, Johnson, McVey, Wills, Jeanette) but I don't think it's happening anytime soon.

I think Hollywood is too enamored by the happy ending scenario. For biopics (unless it's the pseudo fictional thing like Miles Ahead recently), they have to do the rise-fall-rise thing. Louis and SRR didn't exactly leave on the best notes.

But to Naimark's point, it's tougher to get a sense of context when you're decades removed from something and people don't want to provide that. Louis-Schmeling I was referenced in a made-for-TV movie I saw years ago and Dempsey was a bit character on Boardwalk Empire, but the need or want to reiterate how great they were wasn't there. When a studio makes a Braddock film, they're making it to draw in a different fanbase than people who actually know about him. When you get to closer to the current living generations who actually pay to see movies, then it becomes more important because you can't fool people as much. People know how great Roberto Duran is, but you certainly don't need Hands of Stone which looks like your cookie cutter sports drama film. When you think about how random these movies are, it doesn't hurt their legacies but I doubt that it helps that much either. Braddock had an angle in which they felt they can make a movie. Rafael dos Anjos beat Pettis soundily, but there ain't no hook to make you believe there is something compelling beyond that. Buster Douglas could get a movie. Frankie Randall? Probably not.

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People know how great Roberto Duran is, but you certainly don't need Hands of Stone which looks like your cookie cutter sports drama film.

From what I could tell it's as much a Ray Arcel movie as it is about Roberto Duran.  Ray Arcel was one of boxing's great historic treasures, a guy who was in training camps starting with all-time great lightweight Benny Leonard and continuing uninterrupted through all-time greats in Roberto Duran and Larry Holmes.  There is nobody's opinion on the comparative abilities of historic boxers I trust as much as Ray Arcel's.  The story of his experience in the mobbed-up world of 20th century boxing should be a good one.

 

Quote

To be fair, Cinderella Man didn't exactly set the box office ablaze. 

It was ahistoric baloney.  Max Baer was a beloved goofball who was tortured by the memories of the men who died in the ring.  Dempsey himself, who briefly trained Baer in the early-30s, said that despite Max's obvious magnificent physical gifts he was completely unserious and lacked killer instinct.

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1 hour ago, Mistah Na1m4rk said:

 To give you some idea of what Dempsey had to contend with, you might want to refresh your memory of the original context of the famous hobo song, Big Rock Candy Mountain.  

I wonder why they changed that last stanza?  

I think Jack Johnson is the prime candidate for a big budget movie.  That dude was the first black heavyweight champion and spent his time gallivanting around with white women.  He was essentially Kanye West and Mike Tyson at the same time.  

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Here's the Joe Louis movie from the 50s:

 

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Just now, supremebve said:

I wonder why they changed that last stanza?  

I think Jack Johnson is the prime candidate for a big budget movie.  That dude was the first black heavyweight champion and spent his time gallivanting around with white women.  He was essentially Kanye West and Mike Tyson at the same time.  

Plus he refused to fight black contenders when he was champion.  A black man who drew the color line! Plenty of black fighters from the early-20th century, including former elite lightweight and Joe Louis trainer Jackie Blackburn blamed Johnson for setting back the progress of black fighters for a generation.

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24 minutes ago, Mistah Na1m4rk said:

From what I could tell it's as much a Ray Arcel movie as it is about Roberto Duran.  Ray Arcel was one of boxing's great historic treasures, a guy who was in training camps starting with all-time great lightweight Benny Leonard and continuing uninterrupted through all-time greats in Roberto Duran and Larry Holmes.  There is nobody's opinion on the comparative abilities of historic boxers I trust as much as Ray Arcel's.  The story of his experience in the mobbed-up world of 20th century boxing should be a good one..

To be fair, De Niro is also a more known actor than Ramirez so I'm not surprised they're focusing on Arcel's background in the previews and ads. I think they may touch on it briefly, but it looks like the crux of it is going to be Duran and SRL.

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16 hours ago, J.T. said:

The scraps have been great but any idiot can earn a living being punched in the face.  You get into the fight game to be a champion as well as an earner; not just an earner.

I suppose the problem has to do with the talent gaps in the divisions.  Some are stacked and some have alpha champions that run through the division in no time flat.  Mighty Mouse is on a 9 or 10 fight win streak as the Flyweight champ and half of those wins were finishes.

I understand what you're saying but the fight is the fight. Whether a belt is on the line shouldn't affect your level of entertainment of Diaz/McGregor. 

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14 hours ago, glfpunk said:

I understand what you're saying but the fight is the fight. Whether a belt is on the line shouldn't affect your level of entertainment of Diaz/McGregor. 

Oh, it is totally fucking awesome if you are a fan or a spectator, but it blows goats if you are a fighter working his way through the rankings.  Title shots don't come around every day and the opportunity can slip by even if you are ready for it.. 

If I am a fighter on the brink of greatness, I don't want some matchmaker mucking about for catchweight paydays for the champ if I am the #1 Contender in the champ's division, because God forbid I get injured in training camp while waiting on my shot or the champ gets injured in the aforementioned catchweight fight.. 

As a fan of the fight game, I love what Silva does.  Sometimes I wonder if they should even bother with title belts.

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17 hours ago, Setsuna said:

Titles are great and all but if you have the opportunity to basically set yourself for life from one or two fights, you've gotta jump on that opportunity.

No one gives a shit about the person that loses the Presidential election and the person who wins runs the country. 

Dominant fighters who never win championships get lost in time and fuck that.

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People remember Ken Norton, but don't remember he was Champion. They remember him beating Ali.

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1 hour ago, AxB said:

People remember Ken Norton, but don't remember he was Champion. They remember him beating Ali.

That makes no sense at all since the fight in which Norton beat Ali and broke Ali's jaw was a title bout.

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2 hours ago, J.T. said:

That makes no sense at all since the fight in which Norton beat Ali and broke Ali's jaw was a title bout.

That was for the NABF title and not the world title. Foreman was the world champ (the "down goes Frazier fight" in Kingston was two months earlier) when Ali and Norton fought the first time.

Only the third Ali fight was for the actual title and Norton lost that one.

Norton was only given the WBC title when Leon Spinks didn't fight Norton and chose to rematch Ali. That was a five year gap between Norton breaking Ali's jaw and Norton being champ.

He was champ for all of three months. He didn't actually win it in the ring and lost to Holmes in his first defense.

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10 hours ago, J.T. said:

Oh, it is totally fucking awesome if you are a fan or a spectator, but it blows goats if you are a fighter working his way through the rankings.  Title shots don't come around every day and the opportunity can slip by even if you are ready for it.. 

If I am a fighter on the brink of greatness, I don't want some matchmaker mucking about for catchweight paydays for the champ if I am the #1 Contender in the champ's division, because God forbid I get injured in training camp while waiting on my shot or the champ gets injured in the aforementioned catchweight fight.. 

As a fan of the fight game, I love what Silva does.  Sometimes I wonder if they should even bother with title belts.

That's a fair argument but not exactly an epidemic in the sport. McGregor and Silva are the only champions in history who have fought non-title catchweight fights unless I am forgetting someone. That's why I think this argument is a bit over-the-top. It rarely, rarely happens and I think we're a bit early to be calling to eliminate all titles. I get that you meant that it frees up match-makers to put on whatever fight people want to see but I think we get that 99% of the time anyway without having to make all fights catchweight.

In GSP's case, if he's re-committing himself to the sport why not do the Woodley-GSP fight? Sucks for Thompson but you can make the argument for the fight. If it's not Woodley or he's just back for a one or two fight stint - well, everyone's going to want that money fight. Are there other champions calling out GSP for a catchweight fight? I honestly don't know.

I get your point and agree to a certain extent - I was fine with McGregor taking the first Diaz fight but feel that by the time the rematch was announced the FW title should have been vacated. Where we disagree is on how severe of a problem this is and how much it really affects a fighters legacy.

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