Technico Support Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 1 minute ago, Wyld Samurai said: Slaughter was supposed to be a marine? I always thought he was Army. You learn something new every day! His kayfabe hometown was Parris Island, SC, which is home to the main Marine Corps training camp. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brysynner Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 11 minutes ago, Smelly McUgly said: It's up there. It's perfect heel logic because he's absolutely correct here, but he's still correct via skewed heel logic ("which only sold out because I'm in the main event!"). Plus, calling Full Sail fans the John Cena of pro wrestling fans probably actually gave one of those chumps in the crowd a stroke, it's so cutting. EDIT: I went over and saw the argument that you were discussing, and it's pretty incoherent. It also sort of misses the motivation for why modern hardcore fans act as they do, I think. However, it really reveals why Owens should be a main-eventer in this company (which is part of why you posted this clip, I think). He's a genuine heel that can garner heel heat almost at will if he needs to. That is quite valuable in modern-day WWE, where modern fan thinking is that kayfabe is dead, so what value or sense is there in pretending to hate a heel that I actually really like and have an emotional attachment to after having followed his career for many years pre-WWE? The idea that hardcore fans just love to have hate-boners for everything is absurd on its face after thinking for two seconds about how 2013 New Japan or 2015 NXT or both seasons of Lucha Underground were received by those very same fans. Except in the main event of the biggest night of his life when the crowd gave him a huge pop and chants "You deserve it!" Owens is not that great at getting the hardcore fan to hate him unless he is against an uber-face in Sami Zayn. Sure kayfabe is dead but there are plenty of famous actors who can get people to hate their character even if they've had a long career playing mostly good guys. Part of being a heel in 2016 is that you have to work harder to get heat. If Kevin Owens wants to get heel heat as champion, he pretty much has to shit on the crowd constantly, stop doing his big moves (frog splash, top rope fisherman's buster, the running to the ropes fake a kick and lock on a headlock). Heel Mick Foley in 1995 ECW would still work today to get heel heat even though Mick Foley is a beloved WWE Hall of Famer. It is much harder for a guy who's come up through the indies or Japan to get heel heat in 2016 than it would be for someone who came straight from the Performance Center into NXT for a spell where they learn on the fly seemingly and then go to WWE. I'd also say the hardcore fans love to have hate-boners for anything WWE related. So that's why 2013 NJPW or NXT (which many hardcores consider it not apart of WWE because Vince/Dunn/etc. aren't all hands on with it) or LU get praised even if what they do isn't that great or is an unintentional parody of something WWE does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirSmUgly Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 @BrysynnerI think you make a fair set of points, but I don't know that I agree with any of them. Re: Owens getting a pop at the end of the night - Papa HHH is a massive face to the hardcores because of NXT and the CWC. Anyone he helped win was going to get that pop no matter what. On the other hand, the clip Matt D posted shows that Owens, when he needs to, can garner heat by picking out exactly what to say to hardcores that will push their buttons. I don't think it's fair to use the extraordinary circumstance of Owens's victory as a prominent example that he can't get heel heat when he needs to. Give him a mic, and he can absolutely set himself up as the clear heel in a feud, as he did against Zayn and Bálor in NXT. Re: 1995 Mick Foley, he'd probably be getting ironic cheers here in 2016. I think you underestimate how different crowds in 1995 and 2016 actually are. Though again, if Foley played up how the fans don't give a shit about him or his body in a way that would push real buttons (which he would have the skill to do), yeah, he could set himself up as a real heel. Honestly, he'd be doing just what the Miz is doing in 2016, except with a higher degree of difficulty since everyone already hates the Miz for being a reality star and not a real wrestler or whatever. Re: Hate-boners for everything WWE, that's also not true. When WWE books stuff well or pushes the guys the fans are into naturally, people love that shit. See: The Shield in 2013, the Wyatts in 2013, Daniel Bryan in 2014 (eventually and only for about a month). Claiming that the fans just hate everything gives a huge pass to Vince McMahon, who frankly lost his fastball somewhere back in 2001. To go back to HHH, he was reviled by the fans as late as 2008, when he was the dude standing in the way of Jeff Hardy. It only took one well-booked promotion to turn him into Papa HHH, Lord of the Hardcores! Hardcores will give you love if you do stuff they find to be compelling, and if Vince McMahon had the capacity for interesting or creative booking, the hardcores would be singing his praises on message boards all across the interwebs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NikoBaltimore Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 26 minutes ago, Smelly McUgly said: Anyone he helped win was going to get that pop no matter what. Sorry, but can't subscribe to this idea. Cass, sure I can see that. But HHH would have been reviled for helping Seth and even moreso for Roman. If either of those two won due to HHH I'd guarantee you a lot of us would be griping about it. Kevin is the guy that of the three was the one the crowd wanted to win most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirSmUgly Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 2 minutes ago, NickMD said: Sorry, but can't subscribe to this idea. Cass, sure I can see that. But HHH would have been reviled for helping Seth and even moreso for Roman. If either of those two won due to HHH I'd guarantee you a lot of us would be griping about it. Kevin is the guy that of the three was the one the crowd wanted to win most. I'll give you Roman, but not Seth. The crowd loves Seth Rollins. But Roman is a full-on heel to that crowd at this point for a lot of complex reasons, mostly because Roman is an avatar for Vince McMahon IMO, so he's a special case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NikoBaltimore Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 9 minutes ago, Smelly McUgly said: I'll give you Roman, but not Seth. The crowd loves Seth Rollins. But Roman is a full-on heel to that crowd at this point for a lot of complex reasons, mostly because Roman is an avatar for Vince McMahon IMO, so he's a special case. I was thinking Seth because he was the chosen one for a long time (on TV) So if HHH helped him that they'd groan because they wanted somebody new on top (Owens) But like you said Seth's been cheered lately. We can at least safely say that "Anyone he helped win (except for Roman) was going to get that pop no matter what." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go2Sleep Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 1 hour ago, Smelly McUgly said: Papa HHH is a massive face to the hardcores because of NXT and the CWC. ... To go back to HHH, he was reviled by the fans as late as 2008, when he was the dude standing in the way of Jeff Hardy. I think you're underestimating the historical popularity of HHH. He's been really over with most of the WWE audience since his face turn in 2006. He had the heel run with the authority which got the right reactions when he had Bryan to play against, but the Sting feud came off as more legend vs. legend and he was pretty much a de facto face against Roman. I'd agree that NXT has given him a boost from the remaining haters, but he's had that attitude era/long tenure cred with most of the audience since 2011 at least. I know it's kind of weird because most of us remember watching HHH when he was trying so hard to be a legend in the early 2000s and it came across pretty forced a lot of the time, but he really has been in that B-tier legend group with guys like Bret, Shawn, and Taker for several years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie M. Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 And yet crickets again at Mania for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 His twitter handle has "ESPN" after it but I've literally never seen him anywhere. So he's actually lower on the totem poll than Coach and Grisham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuerrillaMonsoon Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 Slaughter was a real Marine though? (trainer at least) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spritenaut 32 Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 Slaughter was in GI Joe Special Forces. Can't get more legit than that. 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTTW Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 Ya know seeing that photo of Owens and his kid enjoying his success in wrestling is just so much better than what guys like the Rhodes brothers and Jake Roberts went through. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 3 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said: His twitter handle has "ESPN" after it but I've literally never seen him anywhere. So he's actually lower on the totem poll than Coach and Grisham. Amin's all over ESPN. Skinny black dude on NBA coverage, used to work for the Suns, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peck Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 3 minutes ago, steve said: Amin's all over ESPN. Skinny black dude on NBA coverage, used to work for the Suns, etc. Also on LeBatard's show periodically. They actually make a number of decent wrestling references on there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 He's unabashedly a twitter troll, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph2112 Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 I think people may underestimate the level of "smartness" of the WWE fan today. I don't believe there are many casual fans left and the majority of people that go to Raw are Smarks, almost where ever they are. The poster boy for this is of course Reigns, who after two years of pushing has literally gotten maybe three pure babyface reactions. The sooner the E would realize who their audience is the better off we would all be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 Ohh okay well LeBatard would explain why I haven't seen him. I quit on those PTI type shows a while back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omega Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 Quote Kevin Owens didn't know he was going to win the #WWE Universal Title Apparently the original plan was for Owens to lose, but he was not aware of the booking on how. He was told that Roman Reigns was winning the belt. The eliminations where supposed to be Cass->Owens->Rollins. And it doesn't stop there. Even Stephanie and Foley had no clue how this would happen The only ones that knew were Rollins, Reigns and Triple H and it is said that all three agreed that this would make the moment all the more special for the fans and Kevin Owens And if this is true, then Owens, Stephanie and Foley were indeed shocked. And the expression on Owens' face and their was legit. His tears(whether he knew or not) were legit and the emotional moment after was all real SOURCE: Wrestling Observer I had a feeling this is what happened based on Owens reaction when Triple H pedigreed Rollins 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go2Sleep Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 The worked shoot era is bizarre. Vince Russo was ahead of his time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(BP) Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 I was sort of taken out of the match by Hunter walking around and directing traffic at the time, but if that's true then he worked his ass off just to make that moment special for KO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyld Samurai Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 2 hours ago, DTTW said: Ya know seeing that photo of Owens and his kid enjoying his success in wrestling is just so much better than what guys like the Rhodes brothers and Jake Roberts went through. I'm not sure what The Rhodes brothers went through other than not have ing their dad around... but I'm pretty sure 99% of the Population had a better go of it as a kid than Jake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattdangerously Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 I'm not buying it. I think someone's working Meltzer. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt McGirt Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 I dunno, the look on Steph's face was pretty organic. That lady was pissed. Sgt. Slaughter was indeed a Marine drill instructor at Parris Island. Incidentally he got his wrestling name there because his fellow Marines thought that facially he resembled Jackie Gleason in the film Soldier in the Rain, whos character was named Sgt. Maxwell Slaughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie M. Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 I don't know where that report came from but it's actually the opposite of what was in the Observer. Everyone involved knew what was going on and acted accordingly. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 Whether it's a work or a shoot or who knew or who didn't;.... Vince Russo is still a moron and this is not to be compared to 2000 WCW 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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