The Man Known as Dan Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 2 hours ago, w. josh said: Sabre's post-match interview seems to make it clear he was purposely working a first-round match style with a plan to do more as he progressed. I prefer that to some of the balls-to-wall stuff we've seen so far from guys like Lince Dorado. I think it tells a good story, too - a guy like Dorado or Raul Mendoza isn't coming in with much fanfare, so there's a little more desperation and a need to throw it all out there from day one; whereas Sabre is one of the 2-3 favorites to win so he's more likely to feel like he can coast for a bit. I also liked most of ZSJ's strikes - the back elbow in the corner looked particularly hurty - which I thought balanced out some of the cutesy stuff. I've never been a fan of the guy's look, and some of his bug-eyed selling gets on my nerves (his sell of the fisherman's buster here was obnoxious), but I think there's enough "there" there that a few months in NXT could prepare him for a successful run on the main roster. I hate the mindset of "saving things for the later rounds" for one reason: it makes all 1st round matches with a favorite look completely meaningless. Sabre Jr "saving things" just makes Dux look like a sub jobber, since Sabre clearly didn't feel he needed to bust out his best shit to win, and he was right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenalysis Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 You can be a scrawny guy and make it work. I mean, look at Waltman in his Lightning Kid days- the dude looked like a bratty toothpick, and always has- but he had the offense to make it work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NikoBaltimore Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 I'm a fan of ZSJ but agree that he was too "cute" for his own good. He made Dux look mostly like a chump which I'm not too keen on. The whole "Look at me, I can do this hold and this hold too!" can be annoying. When he's in competitive matches it balances out to a degree, so hopefully things will ramp up with the later rounds. And I'm sure after going through PC he'll drop the annoying/nonsensical elements and actually make things matter. At least I'm hoping. But I was loving every bit of Bryan freaking out over the guy, it's obvious he's a fan of Zack. Gulak looked pretty good and I loved everything about the commentary for how the ankle was trapped. It's not like anything we heard before, and Bryan was the man for bringing that up. Neese looked super impressive and I'd love to see him as a midcarder on the main roster. And I had no clue who Mendoza was, but he sure did impress me. Would be interested to check out more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 13 hours ago, El Dragon said: I will say: Yeah, ZSJ to me is clearly good at what he does, but I just don't see anything resembling upside in him personally right now in the WWE. Also, his wrestling to me is out right too "pretty". I've heard people say watching him is like watching art. That's great and all, but I don't watch wrestling most of the time to see Art, I watch it to see a fight. ZSJ's match today did not ever really feel like a fight. That's such a disconnect to me, because the WoS style itself is so full of struggle and a sense of almost "real sport" feel. You watch a guy like Marty Jones or Terry Rudge and almost every hold feels like it's earned and every escape like it's fought for, and thus it ends up meaning something. Certainly that's true with Breaks, but perhaps a bit less so with Saint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man Known as Dan Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Oh, I'm not taking shots WoS style as a thing, if that's how it came across, just ZSJ's variation of it, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 The disconnect is with Sabre, I'm trying to say. I don't get how someone can be inspired by this stuff and miss the visceral struggle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie M. Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 I don't think it's fair to say there's a complete disconnect because I've seen plenty of ZSJ matches this year alone (vs Hero, Riddle, Strong, Shibata) where I didn't come away with the same feeling. There is something to be said for mastering the art of the TV match, though, and making his offense work in that setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 I think SMU's notion on the last page that he'll get a lot of use out of the WWE's training is probably accurate. He's also come a long way in the last few years in adding substance to the flash. I also think that it won't be hard for the crowd to buy in. The last thing the Next Sail audience wants is to feel like they're behind a curve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig H Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 I have no idea how ZSJ did anything he was doing. He was doing some crazy video game shit that would require him to clip through the model of the other wrestler. I loved it. As for whether or not ZSJ would win a fight, I've seen more than enough skinny or little dudes win fights against bigger people. I just don't get that argument against wrestlers not looking like they could beat another wrestler based on their physique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 5 minutes ago, Craig H said: I have no idea how ZSJ did anything he was doing. He was doing some crazy video game shit that would require him to clip through the model of the other wrestler. I loved it. As for whether or not ZSJ would win a fight, I've seen more than enough skinny or little dudes win fights against bigger people. I just don't get that argument against wrestlers not looking like they could beat another wrestler based on their physique. I don't think it is because he's skinny or little, but how his skinny little body is composed. Jose Aldo is a skinny little dude, but that skinny little dude looks like he's dedicated his life to hurting people. Zack Sabre Jr. looks like a nerd who learned a few submission moves to put on his drunk friends at parties, not someone who put in the time and work to be able to beat guys who spend just as much time perfecting his craft as he does. My problem with Sabre Jr. from the first match I watched is that his entire style makes his opponent look beneath him. In order for him to string together all of those meaningless submissions his opponents either have to have no idea what they are doing or for some reason they just let him do it. Add the fact that his opponents look like they spend more time training than him, there is a huge disconnect for me. It is basically like some dude off the street learned how to do some abscure techniques and then went to the UFC and beat all of these elite level fighters. They have been claiming that these are the 32 best cruiserweights in the world, and his entire style makes his opponents look inept. That isn't how elite competition works. Maybe I have too much insight into how actual real life grappling works, but his style is about as phony looking as wrestling gets. Grappling is like reading. If you are in kindergarten and can read "See Spot Run," you have a leg up on somebody who can't read at all, but if you aren't about to pick up War and Peace. If all of these dudes are professionals, which they are, they shouldn't be put in a situation where some dude can just go from submission to submission without knowing how to stop it. Say Zack Sabre Jr. is a Ph.D in grappling and everyone else in this tournament has the equivalent to a bachelor degree they should at least know all of the words in the book. Zack Sabre Jr.'s entire stlye treats all of his opponents, who should be able to read at the level of a person with a college degree, like they never got past "See Spot Run." 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggulator Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 My main love of cruiserweights is because I love watching smaller dudes do crazy moves bigger guys can't. I freely admit to being a spot junkie. Even though he's not a cruiserweight, Sabu is probably my all-time favorite wrestler and he's the absolute worst ever in terms of doing stuff that really doesn't make a lot of sense. But that stuff was being the first guy I ever saw do asai moonsaults into the crowd, or impaling himself on table legs, or etc. I liked Sabre but didn't love him. I don't care about a dude's build. Wrestling is sorta predicated on men magically being rebounded from steel ropes. If I'm fine with that, I'll be fine with a guy who looks like me being able to compete against people in a similar weight class. He had some cool reversals and submissions. They weren't my favorite things ever, but it was still fine. The Hendricks/Mendoza match was awesome. The tournament needs someone who breaks rules. I like the Ring of Honor thing they've been doing. But the best part of "fair competition" is when one guy acts like he's into it but then just cheapshots his way to victory. Mendoza looked incredible. I loved the Van Daminator variation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eivion Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 This is the first ZSJ match I've actually seen. It feels weird reading the comments here as while I'm sure a lot of what people are saying is probably accurate about his general work, it doesn't quite feel accurate here. The entire point of the match was that ZSJ could do all these impressive holds but, he gets too cute for his own good both in his execution and showboating. It frustrated Dux, and he made Zack pay for it several times. I thought this was conveyed generally well. And while Zack went into plenty of holds it didn't particularly feel random with him choosing to focus on Dux's arms. The only problem I had with that was it sort of made him look dumb not going more after the arm with Dux's dominant hand. On the other hand it played more into ZSJ's arrogance. I didn't feel Dux's looked inept in the end, just not quite on Zack's level. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig H Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 32 minutes ago, supremebve said: I don't think it is because he's skinny or little, but how his skinny little body is composed. Jose Aldo is a skinny little dude, but that skinny little dude looks like he's dedicated his life to hurting people. Zack Sabre Jr. looks like a nerd who learned a few submission moves to put on his drunk friends at parties, not someone who put in the time and work to be able to beat guys who spend just as much time perfecting his craft as he does. My problem with Sabre Jr. from the first match I watched is that his entire style makes his opponent look beneath him. In order for him to string together all of those meaningless submissions his opponents either have to have no idea what they are doing or for some reason they just let him do it. Add the fact that his opponents look like they spend more time training than him, there is a huge disconnect for me. It is basically like some dude off the street learned how to do some abscure techniques and then went to the UFC and beat all of these elite level fighters. They have been claiming that these are the 32 best cruiserweights in the world, and his entire style makes his opponents look inept. That isn't how elite competition works. Maybe I have too much insight into how actual real life grappling works, but his style is about as phony looking as wrestling gets. Grappling is like reading. If you are in kindergarten and can read "See Spot Run," you have a leg up on somebody who can't read at all, but if you aren't about to pick up War and Peace. If all of these dudes are professionals, which they are, they shouldn't be put in a situation where some dude can just go from submission to submission without knowing how to stop it. Say Zack Sabre Jr. is a Ph.D in grappling and everyone else in this tournament has the equivalent to a bachelor degree they should at least know all of the words in the book. Zack Sabre Jr.'s entire stlye treats all of his opponents, who should be able to read at the level of a person with a college degree, like they never got past "See Spot Run." Jose Aldo is muscular as fuck and not what I would consider skinny. He may be short, but he's strong as hell. Also, to your other point, I guess the little guy at the gym tapping the far more muscular or bigger person looks phony as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Just now, Craig H said: Jose Aldo is muscular as fuck and not what I would consider skinny. He may be short, but he's strong as hell. Also, to your other point, I guess the little guy at the gym tapping the far more muscular or bigger person looks phony as well? No, that isn't my point at all. Jose Aldo is not a large man, but the constant training and fighting has built his body in a way that makes him look as dangerous as he is. He isn't built like he is, because he is a body builder, he is built the way he is because he wants to be the best in the world. He knows to be the best he is going to be fighting a bunch of really talented fighters who train just as hard as he does. Zack Sabre Jr. looks like the little guy at the gym tapping the far bigger and more muscular person...but that is the gym. If you go to a high level grappling contest, he isn't going to just be running through the people on his level. Those tournaments have weight classes for a reason. This tournament is supposed to be the highest level of competition, that is what it is presented as. His matches shouldn't look like he is tapping out the white belts at the gym. Physically he looks like the best dude in a local jiu-jitsu gym, who goes into a competition and gets ran over by dudes who are just as talented as him but actually lift and train outside of their jiu-jitsu class. Grappling is crazy strenuous, and having a size, strength, and/or endurance advantage means a lot. He doesn't have to look like Lou Ferrigno, but it would help if he looked like he was entering a high-level athletic tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristobal Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 If you liked El Generico but don't like ZSJ because of his build, then your problem with ZSJ is not his build. And that's fine. Personally I think the only times a fan should care about a wrestler's build is if they're worried about their health or trying to fuck them, but whatever. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCM Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 There's a big difference between scrawny guys like 123 Kid and Generico working high flying underdog gimmicks and someone like Sabre working a dominant technical ace gimmick. I will say I'm looking forward to ZSJ's next match. He gave off a natural heel vibe to me, and has a very punchable face. He's certainly interesting to watch, and I'll take that with the flaws over a boring wrestler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SturmCRF Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 ZSJ is fantastic in matches where his opponent forces him out of his comfort zone and puts him under some real duress. When someone slaps the smugness off his face and makes him work to do the clever stuff there are few wrestlers I'd rather watch, but the CWC match was like the first half of that story. I still don't know how he'll take to WWE TV wrestling if he becomes a regular NXT fixture, but it'd be great to see someone adapt such a different style to the mainstream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 1 hour ago, Cristobal said: If you liked El Generico but don't like ZSJ because of his build, then your problem with ZSJ is not his build. And that's fine. Personally I think the only times a fan should care about a wrestler's build is if they're worried about their health or trying to fuck them, but whatever. I generally don't care about a wrestler's build either, unless it takes away from a wrestler's credibility like I feel it does with Sabre Jr. I think his style makes his opponents look bad, and his build just accentuates the problems with it for me. His entire style is predicated on him being so much better than his opponent at basic chain wrestling that his opponent shouldn't bother with trying to grapple with him and just pick his lil' ass up and dump him on his head. He nees to be able to convincingly go from hold to hold without his opponent looking like they are cooperating or like they should just slap the shit out of him until he falls down in a heap. He does neither, he makes his opponents look stupid by letting him do this shit with no struggle or reprecusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zev Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 The ending of the Kendrick match made me happy. The ending of the Zack Sabre match made me hope his next opponent is Ken The Box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 TJP has more charisma and is slicker! and has a better physique but did anyone else feel he was also doing the same kind of submission into submission showy shit like ZSJ was doing without working any particular body part? I know we touched on that in the other thread but I'm surprised to see how divisive ZSJ is but everyone seemed to love TJP.. I'm just asking, I like both guys and I really like TJP so it's not even bashing I just felt there was similar things going on there... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig H Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 BTW, at the end of the episode when they did the preview for next week, they announced Gargano and Ciampa as former tag team partners facing off. Uh, when did they break up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSC Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 It was an odd comment, especially because Spoiler they have a pull apart brawl with the Revival next week on NXT which will be right before their CWC match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technico Support Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 On 7/27/2016 at 10:28 PM, JCM said: ZSJ is a cocky shit built like a 12 year old and I want to see him get his face smashed at some point in the turney. Also his selling and facials were bush league. Holy shit. His bug eyed, surprised sell of a fucking fisherman buster (10:22 into the show if you're a fucking masochist) bugged the living fuck out of me. It's not just his wrestling style that makes his opponents look beneath him, but this kind of selling, too. On 7/27/2016 at 9:56 PM, Smelly McUgly said: I couldn't see how Bennett got hurt on the powerslam even with the replay. It looked like he didn't tuck his chin enough on the slam so his head got spiked into the mat. On 7/27/2016 at 10:50 PM, El Dragon said: I think the criticism is that Sabre Jr's build just doesn't look great by WWE standards. I mean I know WWE isn't land of the giants anymore, but Sabre Jr. just looks scrawny. supremebve had a good post about Sabre's build. He's tall AND skinny, which just accentuates his scrawnyness. And it's exacerbated by his Easter Island sized head. He looks like a guy off the street, not a trained athlete. But like someone else said, a stint at the Performance Center would fix that like it did with Zayn. Oh, and facially, the guy looks like Richard from Silicon Valley. On 7/28/2016 at 3:43 AM, Go2Sleep said: Kendrick pitched in some solid heel work, especially that rope kick that cut up Mendoza's mouth. Don't sleep on the ingenious setup for the move: Kendrick held Mendoza's nose so he has to open his mouth the breathe. I'd rather see well thought out stuff like that than Sabre's masturbatory submission transitions any day. To borrow an old Dean-ism, the dude nonsensically changes positions more than an inexperienced high school boy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVA Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 It cannot be overstated how good Kendrick was in this thing. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonnyLaw Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 Aiden English is skinny, and he's like twice the size of ZSJ (although to be fair, Aiden's added a lot since his debut). I thought there were a few times ZSJ got too cute, but Dux would usually respond by doing something like picking him up and slamming him. I'm disappointed Gulak and Sabre are facing off in the next round, because I'd like to see more of them. If Vince is watching this, I feel like he probably just changed whatever the plans were for the Cruiserweight Division and penciled in Nese as the next champ. Everything people have said about Sabre's build applies just as much to The Brian Kendrick, except Kendrick is an amazing wily veteran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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