2013 WON HOF Ballot - lucha

[thecubsfan]

I somehow have a vote (and only vote in the lucha category). I am not at all intense about this. But maybe you are!

 

Atlantis

Cien Caras

Hector Garza

Karloff Lagarde

Blue Panther

L.A. Park 

Huracan Ramirez 

Vampiro

Villano III

Dr. Wagner Jr.

Dr. Wagner Sr.

 

---------------------------------------------------

 

quick thoughts

 

Atlantis - ask me next Saturday.

Cien Caras - Yes

Hector Garza - no

Karloff Lagarde - swayed to yes last time

Blue Panther - Yes, though again ask me next Saturday to a less extent

L.A. Park  - Yes

Huracan Ramirez  - YES

Vampiro - no

Villano III - YES

Dr. Wagner Jr. - leaning yes

Dr. Wagner Sr. - stronger Yes than his son

[RIPPA]

I know this was mentioned once or twice before but is anyone trying to organize the lucha vote so maybe one or two guys can be focused on by everyone instead of splitting the vote like six ways?

 

I mean if III and Panther finally get in - I will be sans pants for like a month

[AlfredoE]

Cubs, write-in KeMonito!

 

Also its about the same group from the past 2 years minus Cibernetico.

 

 

My two cents since I don't vote...

 

Atlantis - tough one. I'd say yes because he's been a top star for practically his entire career. His big weakness is that during hot periods for CMLL, it was others who were hot.  Even his run with Villano III, that had more to do with V-III and being on an incredible run throughout Mexico. 

 

Cien Caras - Yes. Top heavyweight for what was about 30 years. Even when he was old and no longer good, he was still a draw. I don't even know how Konnan got in before he did.

 

Hector Garza - no. I could see him get votes from non-lucha folk since he is a name outside of Mexico and he just passed away.

 

Karloff Lagarde - Yes, but I think the older the era the more likely it will take for that luchador to be written in by someone like Dr. Lucha. 

 

Blue Panther - Yes, but he won't get in either since Konnan already shit on him with Meltzer enough that he might run the risk of being in that "Dick Murdoch spot" for luchadores. Some of the arguments against Atlantis, might suit Blue Panther as well, but the thing is, unlike Atlantis, Blue Panther was a far better worker.

 

L.A. Park - Yes. I think he'd be the obvious guy to get in, but the whole WCW career hangs over these guys heads.  Its like wrestling PEDs. The Santo feud in the early 2000s & his return to AAA were pretty significant post WCW highlights.

 

Huracan Ramirez - Yes, but same thing with him that I mention with Lagarde. Although Huracan Ramirez was a far bigger name.  I also think the amount of Huracan Ramirez copies might hurt him.

Vampiro - no.  Kurt actually voted for him last year solely based on his run in the early 90s. I think Kurt mentioned it on a few podcasts (either one we did or the Bix one).  I argued that Vamp while a big star for about 2 years, and still a name, his run was short and well he's sucked the rest of the time.

 

Villano III - Yes, but he won't get in either.

 

Dr. Wagner Jr. - no, but I can see younger fans saying yes. I just think that he's done far more damage to his career being a dick than say Hijo del Santo or L.A. Park.  Those two guys had decades of being singles stars before it became hard to deal with them.  Doc was more of a trios guy up until his NJPW tours.

 

Dr. Wagner Sr. - Yes, but he won't get in. Didn't Ernesto O'Campo compare him to an Averno-level wrestler? I like Averno, but c'mon, for one thing when Dr. Wagner Sr. was around people actually attended lucha shows. The guy was a headliner working throughout Mexico and was used well in the Western/Southwestern part of the U.S.

 

I'm still curious why no trios have been added to the ballot because Los Misioneros, Los Brazos, the original Ola Blanca, etc. should get some consideration.  Also, Sangre Chicana. Now if anyone dares to even ask about El Dandy, well, read what I wrote about L.A. Park and there's your answer.

Edited September 6, 2013 by AlfredoE

[RIPPA]

I often wondered if at some point Dave wouldn't thrown on a Villano Family entry on there but then I realized I need to give up the dream of any guys I actually love getting in.

[jaedmc]

I often wondered if at some point Dave wouldn't thrown on a Villano Family entry on there but then I realized I need to give up the dream of any guys I actually love getting in.

...DVDVR Hall of Fame. C'mon let's do it.

[OSJ]

 

 

Atlantis

Cien Caras

Hector Garza

Karloff Lagarde

Blue Panther

L.A. Park 

Huracan Ramirez 

Vampiro

Villano III

Dr. Wagner Jr.

Dr. Wagner Sr.

 

---------------------------------------------------

 

quick thoughts

 

Atlantis - ask me next Saturday.

Cien Caras - Yes

Hector Garza - no

Karloff Lagarde - swayed to yet last time

Blue Panther - Yes, though again ask me next Saturday to a less extent

L.A. Park  - Yes

Huracan Ramirez  - YES

Vampiro - no

Villano III - YES

Dr. Wagner Jr. - leaning yes

Dr. Wagner Sr. - strong Yes this his son

 

[Robert]

I've been pushing Cien Caras for a couple of years now but Dave doesn't seem too into the idea. In the past he's cited Cien Caras as being a bad worker when he saw him live in California in the late 70's/early 80's & past his prime when AAA had their boom in 93-95.

 

I can't think of any other major territory/country where the guy involved in 2 of the 3 most famous matches in history & the guy who co-headlined the two largest attended shows in wrestling history would be looked upon so negatively as being a HOF candidate. It's really mind-boggling to me and I am by no means a Cien Caras fanboy just looking for my hero to get some recognition. Facts are facts - the guy is a HOF'er if there ever was one.

 

I wonder if Cien's only chance will end up being if the Hermanos Dinamita get lumped together as a group... although I think that'd actually hurt him since MA2K/U2K are far from HOF'ers. Kinda ties in with Villano III who I think 100% deserves to be in but he gets lumped together with his brothers who were not even in the same league as him but people treat them as an eternal trios team even though the trios team was Villanos I, IV & V for many years. Villano III only became a regular member when his singles career started to wind down.

[DylanWaco]

I don't have a vote and even if I did I wouldn't vote for Lucha candidates because I am nowhere near qualified enough to vote in that category, but I think it's completely bizarre that Cien Caras isn't in.  Even when I knew absolutely nothing about Lucha at all, he was a guy I had some familiarity with through PWI and stuff of that ilk.  Obviously that is not something you can hang an HoF candidacy on, but given how little attention PWI paid to Lucha over the years it's a pretty good indication the guy was a big fucking deal.

 

Also anyone who thinks Villano III isn't a great candidate should read Jose's excellent right up of him.  

 

http://luchawiki.org/index.php?title=Villano_III

[T.Rex-n-effeckx]

My understanding of the math of vote (and no one really understands Meltz math), is that if you vote for more than one guy in category diluting own votes. So I'd back Rippa and suggest voting one or two candidates: Cien, V III feel like the top two to go with.

[AlfredoE]

Kinda late.  Some of the guys already sent in their ballots.

[thecubsfan]

My understanding of the math of vote (and no one really understands Meltz math), is that if you vote for more than one guy in category diluting own votes.

 

I'm pretty sure this is wrong.

 

The voting percentage is number of votes for the candidate divided by the number of voters who say they followed that category of wrestling once. 

 

Once you declare you followed that category, you're essentially doing YES/NO votes on everyone in that category. What really hurts is not multiple lucha candidates getting votes, it's people saying they follow a category, cherry picking a no doubter, but making the bar that much higher for everyone else. 

 

Phil's point is, I think, more about the 10 vote limit. (Which is an illogical concept - if there's 14 guys you think should be in the HOF, then you should be able to vote 14 and not rank them somehow. Same as if you think there's 3. Cut out the gamesmanship.) People who vote on most or all of the ballots might only have a tough choice spending that last vote between (for example) Villano III or Karloff Lagarde and if we all just agreed to vote for V3, he might be off the ballot next year and we'd be all free to vote for Karloff Lagarde. 

 

I don't know if people know enough lucha libre HOF votes and can organize them to make that work. It would probably be best done by first figuring out who the WON HOF voters, lucha ones specifically, but I don't think anyone's worked to figure out who exactly they are, or even enough of them to make a group effort like that work.