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RAW IS SETH ROLLZZzzzzzzz (5/23/16...except the opening which was 5/23/15)


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5 minutes ago, Kyuubi said:

 They need to start building Apollo now or he will be thrown away like Alex Riley.From what I get from Crews is that he needs to work on the story telling part of wrestling which to be fair, is not exactly something that is too hard to work on. 

You realize you're saying "all he needs to work on is the single most important aspect of wrestling that people spend years trying to figure out and still mostly fail, but that's not too hard"?

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When they did the post-Mania call ups it was obvious that Crews, Brooke, and Corbin were the three that could've used some additional seasoning.  I know Crews wasn't exactly lighting it up in nxt but I never got the impression that he didn't have it. He just felt like a work in progress. 

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12 minutes ago, JRGoldman said:

You realize you're saying "all he needs to work on is the single most important aspect of wrestling that people spend years trying to figure out and still mostly fail, but that's not too hard"?

Yeah.

Apollo is in the weird spot that he is not exactly sure how he should work. Is he a big power guy, or is he spry highflier? Sometimes he no sells against opponents who are the same exact size as him when he should at least sell a little. Other times he sells like a maniac against guys he has thirty pounds on them. Then there is the emotion he exhibits that is off because he can never stop smiling and never displays exhaustion or anger or anything during matches or after. I believe he is capable and is not that far behind as you make him out to be. Or he seriously needs a heel turn.

Point is I am not counting him out because I think he's got it like  a few people here who refuse to give up on Eva Marie. He looks like a champ or a potential star and moves like one, and he was at the right place to learn those intangibles(the performance center).

So yeah, I am defending him because he is black. There, you happy?

Edit: I am seriously joking about that last bit.

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34 minutes ago, Kyuubi said:

Money in the Bank is a car wreck match. It already has Sami Zayn and Kevin Owens. Chris Jericho being in it does nothing for him or anybody else for that matter. He is the Kane of the WWE at this point whose legitimacy is based on the precendence of whom he was in the past. He is the least over person and he is marginally better than Dolph Ziggler in terms of what a victory over him means. If anything, it probably would be better if they threw a bunch of young/hungry/untested/unproven guys in there because Chris Jericho's days of being relevant are over. They need to start building Apollo now or he will be thrown away like Alex Riley.From what I get from Crews is that he needs to work on the story telling part of wrestling which to be fair, is not exactly something that is too hard to work on. 

I think I get what you're trying to say, but "the Kane of the WWE" implies that Kane is a thing taking place outside of WWE. Also not a great example - Kane was working his ass off the last time he was being used regularly just like Jericho has been this year.

And at least Alex Riley was over during that one segment with Miz - Apollo has done fuck all since he got called up, and he didn't really show anything in NXT either. "He just needs to work on not being a shitty wrestler, it's that simple" is what Riley defenders said for years, too.

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Tom Phillips does a great "I really need to do something else with my professional career" face when a heel is dressing him down for some reason.

I think Jericho the past few months has been my favorite on the entire show. Calling people "stupid idiot" is so friggin' funny. Call one of your friends that at dinner one night and see the reaction it gets from everyone. It's so dumb and I love it. I actually want Jericho to win the MITB and get another title reign. Part of it is because he's done such a great job heeling it up and he'd be a fun weasel always lurking. I'd also love for him to get a good legacy title run for a few months. Or, he'd also be fantastic as Sandow-ing the briefcase with a ridiculously great temper tantrum afterwards.

But, largely, it's because the online meltdown will be fantastic and fabulous to see.

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I doubt I'll ever truly hate Jericho.  He was such a huge part of my late '90s wrestling fandom.  I wore a vintage Y2J T-shirt to an indie show over the weekend.  His current character just feels like a throwback to his initial WCW heel run.

Frustrating to see Crews' current situation nowadays as I really enjoyed the times I saw him on the indies; he had some really good matches with Elgin in my area.  Personality is SO much more important on the big stage and some guys just don't translate well once they make that jump.

(For the record, I have not yet watched Raw and will probably give it the FFWD treatment later today.)

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26 minutes ago, MORELOCK said:

I think I get what you're trying to say, but "the Kane of the WWE" implies that Kane is a thing taking place outside of WWE. Also not a great example - Kane was working his ass off the last time he was being used regularly just like Jericho has been this year.

And at least Alex Riley was over during that one segment with Miz - Apollo has done fuck all since he got called up, and he didn't really show anything in NXT either. "He just needs to work on not being a shitty wrestler, it's that simple" is what Riley defenders said for years, too.

Kane is just there. He does nothing to get anyone over and beating him has not mean anything for nearly a decade. He is just the 7 footer who was not as good as the Undertaker who we are supposed to take seriously as threat just because of hellfire before he was put in a role that supposedly tames him. A literal stepping stone for enhancement. Hence why they keep throwing that useless Rumble stat. Replace useless Rumble stat with multi-time world champion and we get Jericho. And while Jericho is better than Kane, there has to be a point where WWE needs to stop building his credibility because he does not need the rub. Apollo did and it hurt him worse than winning did for Jericho.

Unlike Riley, Apollo actually has the physical ability that extends beyond being mediocre. He can go. Nothing Alex Riley did in that ring was extra-ordinary. He was generic . Apollo is not and while I do acknowledge that he is failing at the most integral part, he is not a lost cause. He needed to stay in that Performance Center and NXT. He needed for his character to develop. He needed to form an attachment to the crowd which he could not do in a few squash matches or feuds with subpar people. And this is not like Alex Riley who actually got worse after years. This is Apollo Crews after a 8-9 months. He was called up way too early. Give him time.

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They should throw Apollo in a heel tag team. He's an freakishly good athlete with the personality of printer paper. I simply have zero reason to watch someone so uninteresting do flips. I already lived through Billy Kidman once. Don't make me do it again.

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22 minutes ago, Kyuubi said:

Unlike Riley, Apollo actually has the physical ability that extends beyond being mediocre. He can go. Nothing Alex Riley did in that ring was extra-ordinary. He was generic . Apollo is not and while I do acknowledge that he is failing at the most integral part, he is not a lost cause. He needed to stay in that Performance Center and NXT. He needed for his character to develop. He needed to form an attachment to the crowd which he could not do in a few squash matches or feuds with subpar people. And this is not like Alex Riley who actually got worse after years. This is Apollo Crews after a 8-9 months. He was called up way too early. Give him time.

But how would a win over Jericho that he isn't ready for be a good thing for him? Reigns is still suffering the effects, and likely will for the rest of his career, of getting the too-much-too-soon push, and Apollo ain't Reigns.

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10 minutes ago, MORELOCK said:

But how would a win over Jericho that he isn't ready for be a good thing for him? Reigns is still suffering the effects, and likely will for the rest of his career, of getting the too-much-too-soon push, and Apollo ain't Reigns.

Beating Jericho ain't winning the World Heavyweight Title. More exactly, getting into Money in the Bank is not winning the World Heavyweight Title. Anyone could get into Money in the Bank.  Zack Ryder was in Money in the Bank. R-Truth was in Money in the Bank. He did not have to face Jericho for the qualifier or he did not even have to enter the qualifier at all and could have done something else like feud with Rusev or something. A loss to Rusev would not hurt Apollo like a loss to Chris Jericho did. If they really wanted Jericho in MiTB, have him beat someone who we expect him to beat like Zack Ryder, or Dolph Ziggler, or Goldust. 

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I don't watch the B- and C-shows, so I don't know how bad Apollo has been on the main roster so far, but putting him in the MITB match would have been the best thing they could have done for him at the moment. Just have him do a bunch of cool ladder spots with some of the best wrestlers on the roster and that alone would have helped him a lot with getting over with the crowd.

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2 hours ago, Matt D said:

Short on time. Will run through this quickly.

Rollins is a workrate darling, in as he has great stamina, hits his stuff well, does a lot of complex spots quickly. In 2016, in a world that's slowly squeezing through to the other side of workrate primacy, that stuff is maybe 5th most important in what makes a good wrestler?

Dissonance in style: This is the biggest issue. He was booked primarily as a weak champion, but also had to balance that with being HHH's human avatar on earth (just with less fundamentally sound and focused heat segments than Hunter). He ran with a cruiserweight temperament and a heavyweight's ambition. There was definitely a Napoleon complex there with some of his moves. When not overreaching in that way, he'd throw out a lot of flashy stuff, but without the sort of emotive, showy Lightning Kid in 1991 prickishness he needed. In this regard, even someone like heel John Morrison is better (even if there are things Rollins probably does better than him; he doesn't do this better and he needs to). Therefore, he was more likely to get over as an underdog babyface instead of an opportunistic heel. It's lack of vision, lack of message. And some of that is because Rollins' vision is tampered with due to his role and how he was booked, sure, but some of it is just due to having shitty vision, the mindset that working hard and putting on the traditional Japanese-oriented workrate heavy WON five star match is the ideal as opposed to getting over a narrative and properly playing a role in the name of a much more transcendent and long-lasting quality. I don't think he's a victim of booking so much as he's a victim of growing up in the IWC era and thus seeing action as a substitute for pacing and character and build and payoff within a match and between matches. 

Maybe it's just that Reigns is better produced and listens to his handlers better, but allowing yourself to fit into the vision of others and executing that vision well is better than holding onto a vision that doesn't work, or that's one-dimensional at best. 

There are roles that Rollins would be good at. We saw him do well in the Shield as a shine spot dynamo, as a face-in-peril, as someone who could hit the big dives that help set up a finish. I think he'd do very well in 6 minute Nitro-era cruiserweight matches. It's just that those are the absolute nadir of what good wrestling can be, well-choreographed candy, lots of style, little substance. Rollins gets plenty of Skate or Die style points as he runs through his matches. To some people, that makes him great. I get where these people are coming from, but it's literally the least interesting and engaging way to appreciate wrestling (and I would say "think about wrestling" too but that'd be a lie, as it's the absolute absence of analysis).

He has been protected almost his entire time as a singles wrestler.  Breaks up with the Shield, joins The Authority, wins MITB, cowardly HW title run, US title.  Rollins has had very little time as a singles wrestler on his own to establish himself without some sort of outside help or a belt.

Does that count as forced?

What would his heat be like if he worked the mid-card for a few months?

 

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12 hours ago, Overly Critical Man said:

5. A half dead Jericho who only 24 hours earlier was turned into a human pin cushion can defeat Apollo Crews cleanly with little difficulty.

Was that Crews' first loss? What a way to end his win streak if it was. 

6. The cameraman was out of position so no telling what happened after Crews kipped up into a springboard near-stinger ... which in turn means, whatever awesome shit Crews had in mind would have been missed had he been successful.  But never mind that shit, ZOOM IN ON ALL CONTACT!

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7 minutes ago, nate said:

6. The cameraman was out of position so no telling what happened after Crews kipped up into a springboard near-stinger ... which in turn means, whatever awesome shit Crews had in mind would have been missed had he been successful.  But never mind that shit, ZOOM IN ON ALL CONTACT!

I'm thinking Crews was suppose to catch Jericho in mid-air from the kip up.

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I am just going to mention this since it is starting to mushroom into a "thing"

So on the WOR show last night - Alvarez was (rightly) complaining about how JBL was all I WONDER WHAT STATE AMBROSE WILL BE IN AFTER THAT CAGE MATCH!!!! and then Ambrose was totally fine (but this also applies to Crews from last night)

Anyway - Dave made the comment that there is a WWE directive (ie: probably a direct order from Vince*) that wrestlers are not to sell injuries from previous events (especially from previous shows). Basically - the wrestlers want to sell but are told not to.

* - it was not directly said it was coming from Vince, that is me making that assumption

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Just now, Trocar Slush Weasel said:

Is it possible that he was supposed to kip up and hit a standing moonsault on Jericho after his failed Lionsault?

Who fucking knows, ZOOM IN ON ALL CONTACT!

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11 hours ago, DreamBroken said:

I'm glad Rollins didn't randomly act like a babyface just because he came back, made valid points as to why he's a heel in his promo. Liked Shane coming out and just doing a solid straightforward match announcement right away.

Thought Charlotte ditching Ric didn't make much sense coming so abruptly, the night after she used a Dana-as-Ric distraction to win. Like at least it could've came off Flair costing her a match or something but he was always successfully helping her.

Glad Jericho is sticking around for another month at least. Guessing Ambrose or Owens win MITB. Hated breaking up the Club so soon and then Styles losing clean was a surprise, hopefully he'll bounce back. Miz/Cesaro was another enjoyable match again.

What I love about DreamBroken is that he has very specific things he likes in pro wrestling, and he is totally happy when said things occur, no matter what anyone/everyone else thinks.  This is not sarcasm, btw.  I really do think it's admirable.  Here he takes various things that people hated and he knows people are going to hate (Rollins as a heel, Jericho sticking around) but gives reasons why he likes them.  I like that he is totally confident in what he likes, and makes no bones about it, doesn't try to agree with everyone else even if I don't alway feel the same as him.  He's not trying to be contrarian, he's just a dude who knows what he likes.

2 hours ago, Greggulator said:

Tom Phillips does a great "I really need to do something else with my professional career" face when a heel is dressing him down for some reason.

I think Jericho the past few months has been my favorite on the entire show. Calling people "stupid idiot" is so friggin' funny. Call one of your friends that at dinner one night and see the reaction it gets from everyone. It's so dumb and I love it. I actually want Jericho to win the MITB and get another title reign. Part of it is because he's done such a great job heeling it up and he'd be a fun weasel always lurking. I'd also love for him to get a good legacy title run for a few months. Or, he'd also be fantastic as Sandow-ing the briefcase with a ridiculously great temper tantrum afterwards.

But, largely, it's because the online meltdown will be fantastic and fabulous to see.

I've really been enjoying the Jericho run lately, too.  I feel like everything he's done post-WM (I didn't always watch Raw during the WM buildup, because I had other stuff I was DVRing on Mondays and, truthfully, the WM buildup is generally the most boring, by-the-numbers least interesting TV WWE does) has been gold.

26 minutes ago, RIPPA said:

I am just going to mention this since it is starting to mushroom into a "thing"

So on the WOR show last night - Alvarez was (rightly) complaining about how JBL was all I WONDER WHAT STATE AMBROSE WILL BE IN AFTER THAT CAGE MATCH!!!! and then Ambrose was totally fine (but this also applies to Crews from last night)

Anyway - Dave made the comment that there is a WWE directive (ie: probably a direct order from Vince*) that wrestlers are not to sell injuries from previous events (especially from previous shows). Basically - the wrestlers want to sell but are told not to.

* - it was not directly said it was coming from Vince, that is me making that assumption

I'm not entirely sure this is true, though.  They had Kevin Owens limping down to the ring the night after WM.  Cesaro has the tape on his shoulders and sells his shoulder being hurt in every match he has.  This seems like someone building Vince/Dunn up as the big evil wrestling boogeyman again.

Was it just me?  Or was that a TERRIBLE crowd tonight?  Like, even the Enzo pop was about 1/5th what I was expecting for his return.  Lots of stuff they missed.  During the promo where AJ put over Reigns, he also said something like "I will beat him again" and the crowd was still booing about what he said previously to notice.  My theory is they were so excited for Seth Rollins that when he turned heel on them, it took the air out of their sails and they never recovered.  But, still they were particularly shitty throughout most of the night and I'm sad that they wasted Enzo's return on that crowd.

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4 hours ago, RIPPA said:

TEASE~!

Not going to lie, this gave me goosebumps.

Why the fuck they don't air these things on Raw is beyond me. Hell, plan it so that they have 2 or 3 minutes after the match ends to send Tom Phillis out there to interview KO about the win. That promo was pure money...if you happened to catch it on YouTube. Why not broadcast it to everyone watching?

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