WWE Raw 4-4-16 - Post-WrestleMania Raw

[SorceressKnight]

4 hours ago, JohnnyJ said:

 

The entire purpose of the heel authority figure in to build faces (and heels to a lesser extent). The success rate of the Authority in getting acts over is pretty pathetic. The Authority has spent months trying to get Roman Reigns over and he's in worse shape than when they started.

Part of it is the Authority. Part of it is a change in heel/face dynamics. 

Whatever it is, if you're a heel commissioner and the audience is apathetic towards you, then you're serving no purpose and just getting in the way of what people actually want to see. 

But that is also a problem with The Authority- the "Reality Era" has officially changed the definition of "what it means to be THE MAN in a sports entertainment ring". The biggest change of CM Punk's Pipebomb wasn't a move towards "more shoot angles" or "more indy/smark darling workers"- but CM Punk's promo basically saying "the fact that I was a main eventer for basically the last three years and a World Champion in WWE for the past five? All worthless- it meant no more than a jobber on Superstars. That WWE World Championship? It's a prop, and I'm going to steal this prop from WWE in revenge for them not making me a real star. I don't really give a flying fuck about being the main eventer or the World Champion- I'm not in JOHN CENA'S SPOT, and get all the things that means- all the merchandise, all the movie deals, all the charity deals, all the endorsements, all of these things, and so I'm not the FACE OF THE WWE, and if I can't be the face of the WWE I'll destroy the WWE for not making me that guy." 

And IT WORKED. Now, as a result- even "feuds", "storylines","main events", and "titles" don't matter- all that matters is "Is YOUR GUY in the top spot as THE MAN?".

For THAT end, The Authority does have at least one good benefit to the show on TV. They aren't good with getting THE ACTS over- but on the other hand, The Authority was able to successfully dial things back onscreen and make it a plot point in kayfabe that "If YOUR GUY holds the WWE World Heavyweight Championship, the fact he is WWE WHC inherently means that he IS the Face of the WWE and he IS THE MAN, solely by virtue of being the WWE World Heavyweight Champion- and anyone who DOES hold that title automatically becomes the Face of the WWE", thus putting all of these new things people demand from THEIR hero to be a real star and put them on that one McGuffin of the title and, in the process, allowing WWE to write stories around the belt. 

[bink_winkleman]

1 hour ago, jstout said:

That's the reason why I suggested flipping the structure - the Intercontinental and U.S. titles are so meaningless that it's hard to rally behind them, and they'll always be the no. 2-3 titles in the fans' eyes anyway. Even though they haven't exactly protected the WWE title, since it's the top title, it'll always be a certain amount of protected. Plus you could say that the non-internet darlings don't need the belt anyway.

Gotcha, but I don't think it's impossible to build the IC Title back up to what it used to be and get the fans to support that. It would be hard - so it's certainly beyond they're capabilities - but not impossible.

[SirSmUgly]

14 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

And that's also the problem. Both sides have an idiotic move.

The message that should have come from the Daniel Bryan saga was:

"We can't always give you every single thing that you want, all the time- but we DO hear you, even when you don't think we do.

And when it becomes apparent to everyone that you NEED something to happen- we'll give it to you, and we're going to make you want it more and more to the point that when it finally does happen, you'll be happier than you ever thought this show could make you feel again.

You'll get it, and even the most hardened smark on the planet will feel like you're six years old again when you finally get it.

We can't deal in passing fancies, we're not going to throw Fandango a reign with the World Title because you thought it was funny to sing along to his theme one week- but when you truly MUST HAVE something, we know." 

 

The message that a lot of fans got from the Daniel Bryan saga, and which was doubled by Seth Rollins cashing in last year and aborting Roman Reigns's big "he defeated the undefeatable monster!" match with Lesnar as effectively a no-decision, however, was:

 "WE...OWN...YOU.

We saw it two straight years- you changed your plans because we WOULDN'T LET YOU go through with it...and now we know we're in control.

We now know for a fact that if we whine loudly enough, you'll fold like an umbrella and give us whatever we want.

Now, you can just fire the bookers, fire Creative- WE'RE the bookers now.

You will give us whatever we want, the very second we want it, and if you DON'T give it to us immediately we'll bitch and moan and whine and cry and hijack the shows and turn every other fan away from the WWE if we have to until you finally cave in, and if it ruins the whole show, we don't care as long as we get OUR way." 

Honestly, I don't know if that's fair. Take out the Post-WM show, where fans set out to hijack it as a form of tradition at this point. Where do the crowds basically focus their ire? Roman Reigns.

They're not booing everything and totally wrecking up every segment of every show. However, they do have ideas about who they want the lead babyface to be, and who can blame them? They know that whenever Vince picks that guy, it's a decade-plus with him on top.

That part of the crowd loves their never-say-die babyfaces like Bryan and Ambrose and their slick-wrestling indie favorites like Rollins. They don't want Vince McMahon's '80s babyface stereotype anymore. That is what it is.

So, this is really what it's about. Not "We want Fandango as champ," which I know that you were using as hyperbole, but which is still too facetious to use as an example even though your purpose was hyperbolic. It's simply that the crowd has different ideas about what makes a good lead babyface than Vince does.

Case in point: The only three pure babyfaces to get over completely in front of a WWE-affiliated crowd in the last decade are Daniel Bryan, Sami Zayn, and Bayley. Vince McMahon would never, ever think to actually push any of these flawed, optimistic, never-say-die characters as lead babyfaces because he just doesn't get why people thirty and forty and fifty years younger than them would see them as perfect lead babyfaces. He's pushing Superman when a sizable portion of the audience wants Spiderman. 

Vince can choose to pay lip-service that he listens to the fans or he can actually listen to them and get that the days of Hogan and Cena are over as far as a significant portion of his fans are concerned. 

[JCM]

5 hours ago, Ace said:

To be fair, Roman gets more cheers than boos on the house shows. And he did pop the crowd at WM's finish, despite them booing him the entire match.

 

That was piped in, and they edited the crowd noise the entire match.

[Niners Fan in CT]

I've heard about the house shows but why would those crowds be drastically different than a random SD!.. those are still a lot of families and kids etc.. the recent SD!s I've been to Roman is still getting the boos

[jstout]

I bet the house show cheering/booing has a lot to do with the size of the town and how often the WWE comes there. In smaller towns that may get a WWE show maybe once every 1-2 years, they're prepared to cheer anyone they've seen on TV. At a place that would get even a Smackdown, the fans are a bit more jaded.

[Ace]

7 hours ago, JCM said:

That was piped in, and they edited the crowd noise the entire match.

People who were there say different.

 

[Niners Fan in CT]

No argument on what the crowd reaction was for RAW. But I thought Roman played it very well. He was awesome. I wonder if we get more of that or it was just a one shot deal because of where they were.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Here in the Denver area we get a couple of house shows a year and RAW about twice a year generally and the crowds here are always cheering and booing the "right" people. Last RAW here, Reigns was getting massive cheers. At a house show I was at a year ago Cena got all cheers and no mixed reaction.

[TheVileOne]

On 4/5/2016 at 8:16 PM, grizzlyedwin said:

So what was everyone saying last night about AJ being buried?

Well they are feeding him to Roman Reigns

Look if the idea is to build up AJ Styles for a title shot on PPV, why would you have him job to Jericho and have Jericho kick out of all of Styles' crazy finishers in the same match?  

[Cristobal]

15 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

Well they are feeding him to Roman Reigns

Look if the idea is to build up AJ Styles for a title shot on PPV, why would you have him job to Jericho and have Jericho kick out of all of Styles' crazy finishers in the same match?  

Kid's gotta pay his dues. 

[Niners Fan in CT]

33 minutes ago, Cristobal said:

Kid's gotta pay his dues. 

"Welcome to the big leagues, kid!"

[jstout]

Maybe it was one of those Chumbawamba deals - he gets knocked down, he gets up again.

[TheVileOne]

2 hours ago, Cristobal said:

Kid's gotta pay his dues. 

AJ Styles has paid his dues, which is a dumb idea anyway when it comes to wrestling.

 

[peterien]

1 hour ago, TheVileOne said:

AJ Styles has paid his dues, which is a dumb idea anyway when it comes to wrestling.

 

He hasn't in Vinces eyes which is also dumb.

[JohnnyJ]

7 hours ago, Johnny Sorrow said:

Here in the Denver area we get a couple of house shows a year and RAW about twice a year generally and the crowds here are always cheering and booing the "right" people. Last RAW here, Reigns was getting massive cheers. At a house show I was at a year ago Cena got all cheers and no mixed reaction.

I can say that I've experienced something similar at MSG of all places. Only a few days after Cena was getting booed out of the building at Barclays on ppv, the crowd was at least 80% pro-Cena and treated the Ryback like he was Hulk Hogan. It's an annoying talking point, but sometimes the house show audiences really are different than the live tv audiences. 

[bink_winkleman]

I think AJ losing at Mania has more to do with Jericho than AJ. Hasn't Jericho said this is his last? Vince probably wanted him going out on a high note after having him job to Fandango once upon a time.

[JCM]

I think they had to keep Jericho strong because outside of HHH they have no credible heels in the singles division.

[Cristobal]

Owens?

[BEN!]

On 4/5/2016 at 0:02 AM, Fallacy! said:

Ok DVDVR Universe, you have one of two choices for Roman Reigns-AJ Styles:

A.) Bullet Club finally debuts, as heels, to help AJ but Reigns overcomes the odds and wins.

B.) Reigns cleanly beats AJ in a hard fought back and forth match. They shake hands and hug at the end and AJ gives Roman the "hey smarks, this guy is for real, y'all need to respect him" pointing and thumbs up gestures. 

 

Whats it gonna be?

C.) Reigns beats Styles clean, Code Of Honor, Styles leaves to give Reigns his moment, Karl and Festus run in from the crowd and attack Reigns leading to Ambrose running out for the save.

Tease a little dissension between Reigns and Ambrose before Payback though.  Ambrose asks for a title shot on Raw, Reigns says he couldn't even beat Lesnar at WrestleMania, Ambrose says Reigns has never beaten Lesnar either, Reigns tells Ambrose he's beaten him before though.  Ambrose says he'll be in the back of the line if he needs him but he'll see him at the front soon.  Fist bump.  Still bros.

Then after Payback, Reigns and Ambrose call out Styles for siccing his boys on Reigns since Styles couldn't get the job done.  Styles denies any involvement.  Ambrose and Styles go one on one.  Styles gets shitcanned to the floor, Karl and Festus jump Ambrose, Reigns out for the save.  Styles still denies any involvement.  Next week, Styles and Ambrose again one on one, Reigns at ringside on commentary to keep an eye on things.  Styles gets shitcanned to the floor again, Karl and Festus run out, Reigns gets up for the save but Finn Balor jumps him from behind and blows mist in his eyes.  Then he posts Styles and The Balor Club put the boots to Ambrose to go off the air.

Next week, Balor Club formally introduced.  "My name is Finn Balor.  I'm the NXT Champion.  I'm Triple H's most prized talent signing.  And this is my club.  The Balor Club.  We're already worldwide and now we're taking over WWE.  I'm the real rock 'n rolla of the WWE Universe.  Not that old has been Jericho.  I took out Hideo Itami cause they said he was a big star out of Japan.  What a crock.  Yeah, I'm the one who did that.  I'm the biggest star out of Japan and I'm not even Japanese!  I beat Kevin Owens to win the NXT Championship.  Kevin Owens isn't Balor Club material cause he's fat.  Look at my abs!  Dean Ambrose, yer chainsaw, I sabotaged it!  It should have been me against Brock Lesnar at WrestleMania.  I would've painted me self up as the vilest demon imaginable.  You, not one drop of paint.  And AJ Styles.  You had the nerve to try to steal my club when I left Japan.  You had the nerve to try and call yourself the leader of my club..."

"Hey, I'm not one to gossip, but I gotta tell you, when we were in Japan, AJ would talk real good about you to the press but off camera, he'd pull me aside and say, "Karl, I really hate Finn Balor" and I'd be like "Why, hoot?  He's a good brother." and he'd say, "I think he's one of those new gay guys."

"All those months of hugging Bayley in NXT.  Let me tell you all, her hugs aren't very good.  You know who hugs good?  The big guy here."

"Awww hell yeah, c'mere, hoot."

"Yeah, that right der is a good hug.  Take notes Bayley.  I'm the NXT Champion.  I can hug anybody I want to.  Not like you people here.  I can hug supermodels if I want to!  And when I beat Roman Reigns and become WWE World Heavyweight Champion too.  I'm going to hug two supermodels at the same time cause that's how Balor Club parties!"

[SorceressKnight]

But I thought Tama Tonga and Camacho stayed in New Japan, keeping the Balor Club from getting THEMONSTERMENG or Col. Parker to merge them with the Stud Stable. 

This booking can never succeed in WWE.

[JRV]

On ‎4‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 3:40 PM, TheVileOne said:

AJ Styles has paid his dues, which is a dumb idea anyway when it comes to wrestling.

 

You don't have a guy come into your organisation and let him go over at THE SHOW. He came out of that feud looking super strong, without actually really damaging Jericho. Sometimes it's like some fans just want their dude to win like every big match they're in, which is not how wrestling has ever worked. I am actually really surprised AJ is getting the push he is, right out of the gate.

[TheVileOne]

3 hours ago, JRV said:

You don't have a guy come into your organisation and let him go over at THE SHOW. He came out of that feud looking super strong, without actually really damaging Jericho. Sometimes it's like some fans just want their dude to win like every big match they're in, which is not how wrestling has ever worked. I am actually really surprised AJ is getting the push he is, right out of the gate.

Why?  And that's bullshit because wrestling has worked that way all the time.  

[JCM]

On ‎4‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 0:46 PM, Cristobal said:

Owens?

The guy who dropped a bunch of pin falls to Ziggler this year? KO is doing pretty well  as of late though.

I really wish they would heat Rusev up again that dude is so awesome.

[OSJ]

I think there's been two really excellent thoughts brought up in this thread that merit further discussion. Smelly McUgly's observation about fans wanting Spiderman  when the WWE is still serving up mid-50s issues of Superman is telling. Bink mentions building up the IC title to being something important once again. He could have said "US Title", "European Title", "Western States Heritage Title", "Alabama Junior Heavyweight Title", etc. it doesn't matter what the title is, what matters is how it's presented and more importantly, who is doing the presenting. 

Obviously, the most glaring example of this is NJPW where Nakamura elevated a secondary belt to almost equal importance to the main belt. Shibata's bringing a sense of importance to the Never Openweight strap that has previously been lacking. The biggest part of the presentation is the writing. Back in the 1980s we knew as surely as we knew that Gordon Solie was blasted out of his mind on most broadcasts that the Intercontinental Title meant that the holder was the #1 contender to the World title. Down South, we knew that the NA belt meant the same thing, #1 of the mythical NWA top-ten. The TV title was the working man's belt, the holder was the very definition of the "fighting champion". These concepts aren't hard to get over, they are very simple for a very good reason, you want fans to be able to come in cold and be able to immediately immerse themselves in your wrestling world. They don't need to go to Solie's Title Histories and research the lineage going back to Farmer Brown; they need to be able to immediately understand who's who and why they are doing what they're doing. 

CM Punk's various "pipe-bombs" were allowed to do a good bit of damage wherein the truth of the matter is that he actually laid down the opportunity to really cement the importance of the various titles. Instead of having various authority figures running about flapping their hands in a panic what easily could have been done was to refute his points by talking about the extra merchandise money, public appearance fees, movie roles, hell, even the extra coin at the "pay windah" that comes with holding the title. Whether it's cart before horse or not, it sounds believable, just as in an earlier time the concept of the "winners' share" sounded believable.

Obviously, there are too many titles which leads to directionless booking and undermines the value of all. I'm pretty firmly convinced that what you need on the main roster is:

World Heavyweight Title

Secondary Belt (For the sake of discussion let's say it is the IC title)

TV Title (This is such a no-brainer that I'm aghast that it isn't being utilized. Here's your automatic main event for whichever show you want to expose. Title is defended weekly on TV. Now whether that means RAW, Smackdown, Superstars, is always fluid. What better way to get people to tune in to the "B shows" than to promise them a quality fifteen or twenty-minute match? Obviously, the key here is to keep the strap on guys that can go with a wide variety of opponents. We don't need to see Ryback lumbering about for twenty minutes this week or any week. But Sami Zayn? Kevin Owens? Seth Rollins? Tyler Breeze? the list goes on...)

Women's Title (Self explanatory, and may I say how happy I will be to never hear the term "diva" again unless the speaker is talking about an opera singer.)

Tag Team Title (Because tag-teams are fun)

There ya go, just four major singles belts, I really agonized about a Cruiserweight or Juniors belt, but in a world where a Rey Misterio or Finn Balor can be champ, I just don't think it's necessary, you've just got too many guys in the 180-220 range now getting pushed as capable of dealing with the big fellas to make the division necessary.

Lastly, there was (and is) a reason that many, many preferred Spiderman to Superman. You didn't need to come up with progressively more ridiculous reasons for the character to be in jeopardy. For a planet many thousand of light-years away from us that was blown into dust, a hell of a lot of Krypton seems to have made it to Earth in one form of Kryptonite or another... Hulk Hogan jumped the shark as "Superman" after the SME cage match with Orndorff. From that point forward it was either being ganged up on or monster of the month, the idea that any single wrestler could beat the Hulkster was an impossibility. As to when Super Cena did the same, it was during a point that I couldn't bring myself to watch, so I'll leave it to someone else to pinpoint the time and place. The main thing is that Super Cena makes for compelling story-telling on the level of "The Rainbow Batman"* or "Giant-Turtle Jimmy Olson"**.

The era where we are given kayfabed heights and weights seems to be disappearing (and not a moment too soon). Hell, part of the compelling nature of the Samoa Joe / Finn Balor feud is the acknowledged size difference. Credit Daniel Bryan for bringing a concept to pro wrestling that we MMA fans had known for years, "bigger isn't always better", but it does need to be acknowledged as an advantage. It's just not an insurmountable one. If you have two equally skilled opponents, the good big man beats the good little man every time. However, if there's a disparity in ability/experience, all bets are off... Whether WWE implements any or all or none of these things will be interesting as none of these changes in any way shape or form are at odds with their goals of appeasing sponsors, maintaining at least the illusion of a family-friendly product and so on. One almost wishes that little signs saying "Less is more!" were posted throughout Titan Towers as what all of these things do is focus the product, make the writing easier, not harder and most importantly makes it easy for new fans to jump on board without feeling overwhelmed trying to figure out what's important and what isn't.

Damn, I'm rather verbose today... Guess that means that the WWE is doing something right, they're making me care about what they're doing again...

 

 

 

* Yeah, this was an actual story.

** God help us, so was this.