WWE Raw 4-4-16 - Post-WrestleMania Raw

[evilwaldo]

2 hours ago, Vader does my taxes! said:

I think you meant to say " I think HHH is the most boring and stale character this Century.  In my opinion, there is nothing to the character outside of ego."

 

Or maybe not.  I don't usually assume my opinion is the definitive last word on... well, anything, so I have a feeling I'm not understanding how this Internet thing is supposed to work.

Personally, I dig Trips and Stephanie heeling it up. 

 

Maybe you are into Stephanie dressing as Chyna from the January 2002 issue of Playboy.  I don't know.

But yeah if you are into two people taking up the first 25 minutes of RAW every week and stuffing themselves into every segment to the point they are the only heels on the roster maybe you find that compelling.  I find the part where their egos are so large that they feel the need to co-opt the heel side of the roster even more interesting.  

Who is the Main Event heel opposite HHH and Steph?  Is there one?  Nope.

The fact they keep putting themselves out there week after week is a big reason why the product is so stale.  

 

[jstout]

Somebody who follows the stuffing better than me knows this:

What's the timeline of the heel authority figure in the WWE? Steph-Hunter have been at it for years now (except for that silly "authority must disband" that lasted all of two weeks), then there was Johnny Ace, etc. How long has it been since there wasn't a heel authority figure in some form, and how long did the break last?

 

[JustJay]

Teddy Long on Smackdown. If you want to count Raw last I can think is Sheriff Austin and Before that Mick Foley. 

[Go2Sleep]

17 minutes ago, jstout said:

Somebody who follows the stuffing better than me knows this:

What's the timeline of the heel authority figure in the WWE? Steph-Hunter have been at it for years now (except for that silly "authority must disband" that lasted all of two weeks), then there was Johnny Ace, etc. How long has it been since there wasn't a heel authority figure in some form, and how long did the break last?

 

Probably the weekly "guest host" days. Most of them acted as faces or didn't do anything.

[Nice Guy Eddie]

I've said it a million times, but in the long run, the Mr. McMahon character was perhaps the worst thing to happen to WWE. Once Austin vs. McMahon ended, that should have ended the heel authority figure for good. 

[jstout]

You could say Bryan vs. the Authority was a pretty good use of the heel authority figure, but it was as once-in-a-lifetime (with a different spin) as Austin-McMahon. It won't work with just anyone you want to put into the formula, and if that "special someone" isn't there in the face role, it isn't worth doing.

[Cristobal]

Meanwhile, NXT has had a babyface authority figure for a couple years now. 

[Niners Fan in CT]

and Regal only really shows up to announce important shit or to occasionally put a heel over.

[jstout]

And there probably couldn't be a more natural choice for a GM to the NXT audience than Regal. He'd be somewhere on a typical NXT fan's Mount Rushmore.

[SorceressKnight]

8 hours ago, Smelly McUgly said:

The upper brass tells the audience directly in numerous interviews, video packages, etc.,  "We pay attention to the fans. Really the fans and their reactions are what causes us to pick the guys we push."

The fans take this to heart eventually after hearing it so many times. 

They cheer Bryan. 

The brass doesn't react to their cheers post-Summerslam 2014, so the fans vocally wreck up the shows.

The brass changes the booking to make Bryan champ at WM in response.

The crowd assumes that this strategy will work in the future.

So exactly who is the idiot here?

And that's also the problem. Both sides have an idiotic move.

The message that should have come from the Daniel Bryan saga was:

"We can't always give you every single thing that you want, all the time- but we DO hear you, even when you don't think we do.

And when it becomes apparent to everyone that you NEED something to happen- we'll give it to you, and we're going to make you want it more and more to the point that when it finally does happen, you'll be happier than you ever thought this show could make you feel again.

You'll get it, and even the most hardened smark on the planet will feel like you're six years old again when you finally get it.

We can't deal in passing fancies, we're not going to throw Fandango a reign with the World Title because you thought it was funny to sing along to his theme one week- but when you truly MUST HAVE something, we know." 

 

The message that a lot of fans got from the Daniel Bryan saga, and which was doubled by Seth Rollins cashing in last year and aborting Roman Reigns's big "he defeated the undefeatable monster!" match with Lesnar as effectively a no-decision, however, was:

 "WE...OWN...YOU.

We saw it two straight years- you changed your plans because we WOULDN'T LET YOU go through with it...and now we know we're in control.

We now know for a fact that if we whine loudly enough, you'll fold like an umbrella and give us whatever we want.

Now, you can just fire the bookers, fire Creative- WE'RE the bookers now.

You will give us whatever we want, the very second we want it, and if you DON'T give it to us immediately we'll bitch and moan and whine and cry and hijack the shows and turn every other fan away from the WWE if we have to until you finally cave in, and if it ruins the whole show, we don't care as long as we get OUR way." 

[jstout]

But to a certain extent, the fans have always been the bookers, usually on who's a heel and who's a face. The fans turned Austin, the Rock and Cena. I think the fans are basically trying to turn Reigns heel now.

I wonder if the WWE hasn't just thrown in the towel or the white flag or however you want to put it, seen the critical success of NXT and decided to basically flip-flop the WCW structure. I've wondered if AJ will beat Reigns in their match (AJ losing again would chump him out, bad) and win the title, which will become the "guys who can wrestle/Internet darlings" belt. AJ will take on the Owens and Nakamuras and Cesaros and whatnot while Reigns fights in hoss feuds with people like Lesnar or maybe Cena (who could fit nicely into both groups and aggravate the anti-Cena smarks). Basically, the midcard was having all the great matches in WCW while Hogan and Piper feuded forever on top. Just flip it so the great matches are main eventing and the "spectacles" (which will still be tons better than Hogan-Piper) are lower on the card.

 

[peterien]

Im only catching up so if this has been said apologies.

"They boo who they normally cheer and cheer who they normally boo"

"Non traditional"

"Impassioned"

"You guys are crazy"

All these terms designed to brush off the most die hard fans who watch EVERY week,travel from every point in the world and spend the most money out of any RAW crowd throughout the year to get there. 

Its really annoying they just brush off the post WM crowd as a "once off" crowd who have crazy opinions when its the complete opposite.

EDIT; the "we are idiots" chant did them no favours however.

[The Z]

32 minutes ago, peterien said:

Im only catching up so if this has been said apologies.

"They boo who they normally cheer and cheer who they normally boo"

"Non traditional"

"Impassioned"

"You guys are crazy"

All these terms designed to brush off the most die hard fans who watch EVERY week,travel from every point in the world and spend the most money out of any RAW crowd throughout the year to get there. 

Its really annoying they just brush off the post WM crowd as a "once off" crowd who have crazy opinions when its the complete opposite.

EDIT; the "we are idiots" chant did them no favours however.

I see this exactly the same way as you. Despite the main event four-way and all the debuts, in some ways Raw felt like an even bigger slap in the face of the fans than Wrestlemania itself. "Oh, don't listen to these people. These people are just crazy loons."

[StretchMediatedHypertrophy]

When you look at all the recent roster additions, it really does look like some kind of split is on the cards. I kind of hope they do because I feel pretty done with RAW right now, but would probably watch a largely separate Smackdown with the workrate guys.

 

 

 

[peterien]

1 hour ago, The Z said:

I see this exactly the same way as you. Despite the main event four-way and all the debuts, in some ways Raw felt like an even bigger slap in the face of the fans than Wrestlemania itself. "Oh, don't listen to these people. These people are just crazy loons."

Exactly its kinda like some of the talent (especially Reigns) were told "forget about em we wont see em for another year, just get through tonight" when in fact these are the people watching week in week out saving their money for one big trip to the biggest show of the year.

We'll see how big the slap is depending on how AJ, Enzo & Cass and Cesaro get on in the next few weeks.

[joseph2112]

It's win/lose for the WWE. The most passionate fans are the ones who they will never drive off, as hard as they try. In face, if all those hard core fans left tomorrow, I think the company would be in real trouble. But they won't. They will, however, continue to go to shows and crap on poor entertainment though.

[Craig H]

If WWE wants to keep using an authority figure, they should go the Dana White route and have that person by like Dana. Regal is the closest to that.

[Spritenaut 32]

10 hours ago, evilwaldo said:

Maybe you are into Stephanie dressing as Chyna from the January 2002 issue of Playboy.  I don't know.

But yeah if you are into two people taking up the first 25 minutes of RAW every week and stuffing themselves into every segment to the point they are the only heels on the roster maybe you find that compelling.  I find the part where their egos are so large that they feel the need to co-opt the heel side of the roster even more interesting.  

Who is the Main Event heel opposite HHH and Steph?  Is there one?  Nope.

The fact they keep putting themselves out there week after week is a big reason why the product is so stale.  

 

I don't entirely disagree with this, though I thought the first Authority run was reasonably good and had Seth doing a decent job as a chickenshit heel.  The problem is that the Authority came back.  That isn't a McMahon/Trips ego thing apparently.  USA asked/demanded that the McMahons resume onscreen roles.  When the Authority was brought back, they came back mostly as just HHH, Stephanie, Seth, and babyface-ish Kane.  Seth had no backup (not even J&J) most of the time, so his role as chickenshit heel became kinda strained, and since there really was no Authority outside of the three of them, too much of the focus fell on Stephanie and HHH.

I completely agree that the WWE needs to give the evil GM a rest.  They also need to give the 20-min promo the burial it deserves.  Neither of those things seem likely to happen in the near future.  Shane will be an evil GM by fall if he sticks around.  What I think will happen if they take Triple H and Stephanie off-screen is that someone less capable will take over and do the same act,  Instead of the Authority cutting 20 min promos to open the show, it will be the new heel power couple of Roman Reigns and Eva Marie cutting 20 min promos and burying guys to open RAW. 

If that's my choice, I'll gladly take Trips/Steph.

 

[JohnnyJ]

 

The entire purpose of the heel authority figure in to build faces (and heels to a lesser extent). The success rate of the Authority in getting acts over is pretty pathetic. The Authority has spent months trying to get Roman Reigns over and he's in worse shape than when they started.

Part of it is the Authority. Part of it is a change in heel/face dynamics. 

Whatever it is, if you're a heel commissioner and the audience is apathetic towards you, then you're serving no purpose and just getting in the way of what people actually want to see. 

 

 

[Technico Support]

While USA has demanded the McMahons be on TV, how they are presented and the content of McMahon storylines is on WWE.  There are many stories you can write about these characters, not just "evil authority figure deux ex machina who is smarter and better than all the wrestlers," which is counterproductive and beyond stale. 

[ARMDRAGON]

2 hours ago, Craig H said:

If WWE wants to keep using an authority figure, they should go the Dana White route and have that person by like Dana. Regal is the closest to that.

I want to see Kurt Angle deliver the "Do you wanna be a freakin' sports entertainer?" speech. 

[JCM]

5 hours ago, jstout said:

But to a certain extent, the fans have always been the bookers, usually on who's a heel and who's a face. The fans turned Austin, the Rock and Cena. I think the fans are basically trying to turn Reigns heel now.

I wonder if the WWE hasn't just thrown in the towel or the white flag or however you want to put it, seen the critical success of NXT and decided to basically flip-flop the WCW structure. I've wondered if AJ will beat Reigns in their match (AJ losing again would chump him out, bad) and win the title, which will become the "guys who can wrestle/Internet darlings" belt. AJ will take on the Owens and Nakamuras and Cesaros and whatnot while Reigns fights in hoss feuds with people like Lesnar or maybe Cena (who could fit nicely into both groups and aggravate the anti-Cena smarks). Basically, the midcard was having all the great matches in WCW while Hogan and Piper feuded forever on top. Just flip it so the great matches are main eventing and the "spectacles" (which will still be tons better than Hogan-Piper) are lower on the card.

 

They would have to find someone close to being as over as Bryan was to make that work. Cena completely overshadowed Rollins when he was doing mid card US title matches. Reigns' matches are going to feel like a big deal going forward because the fans are invested in booing him. If they had AJ/Bullet Club, Zayn, and Nakamura catch fire they could maybe headline a few shows while Roman works a Corbin or Strowman type in a mid card title match, but Vince won't do that very often if at all.

[bink_winkleman]

If they'd just build up a compelling IC title scene around "guys who can wrestle/internet darlings," they wouldn't have to flip the WCW structure at all. People would be more accepting of the kiddie/merchandise main eventers if they had something else to be invested in and a belt they could rally around. They started to move this direction with Bryan's IC run and his Smackdown takeover, but obv that all fell apart and they weren't committed to the concept so much as throwing fans a bone with D-Bry. It's ridiculous how little they try and fit into so much programming.

[Ace]

20 hours ago, Jrag said:

The crowd was really into like 4/5ths of the show.  Better than most nights.  Better than most post-WM nights.

They cheered Vince when he came out because they love Vince, they booed Vince because they don't like the direction things are going, they cheered him again when they realized Shane was still in the story and on and on.  It's not that hard to figure out, guys.  

If you don't understand why Roman is getting booed out of every building, or why the same fans who cheered him two years ago are now booing, then I don't know what to tell you.  Maybe you have shit taste in wrestling?  Maybe you ignore all context intentionally? I don't know, but it's definitely not because everyone in the crowd is a moron.

To be fair, Roman gets more cheers than boos on the house shows. And he did pop the crowd at WM's finish, despite them booing him the entire match.

 

[jstout]

1 hour ago, bink_winkleman said:

If they'd just build up a compelling IC title scene around "guys who can wrestle/internet darlings," they wouldn't have to flip the WCW structure at all. People would be more accepting of the kiddie/merchandise main eventers if they had something else to be invested in and a belt they could rally around. They started to move this direction with Bryan's IC run and his Smackdown takeover, but obv that all fell apart and they weren't committed to the concept so much as throwing fans a bone with D-Bry. It's ridiculous how little they try and fit into so much programming.

That's the reason why I suggested flipping the structure - the Intercontinental and U.S. titles are so meaningless that it's hard to rally behind them, and they'll always be the no. 2-3 titles in the fans' eyes anyway. Even though they haven't exactly protected the WWE title, since it's the top title, it'll always be a certain amount of protected. Plus you could say that the non-internet darlings don't need the belt anyway.