The MST3K Thread

[CrazyMax46]

I could write a 200 page book about this stuff. I would call it "You don't know shit about television" I'm actually calling this Kickstarter to need more money than they are saying and they will eventually need to go to outside sources.

I'm sorry if I was out of line. But immediately going to the "This sounds suspicious" card on a Kickstarter pisses me off.

Yeah? This game needs $3 million? You think that's too much? Why don't you go ahead and explain that with all that economy knowledge you don't have.

[Jingus]

The obvious question now becomes: how much did it cost to produce the old MST3K episodes in the past? I looked around a bit, but couldn't find any numbers.

I did however find an interview with Joel saying that the entire concept was basically invented by the question, "What's the cheapest possible way I could make a TV show?". The entire program is based around the idea of doing things in the most grungy, DIY manner possible. The entire cast consists of only half-a-dozen people playing multiple roles, the sets involve little more than two or three small rooms which are only shot from one angle with one camera and could easily all fit on the same soundstage, the "special effects" are typically nothing more than crude puppets and cruder models, and the vast majority of every episode's running time is spent just filming silhouettes in front of a greenscreen. The only unusual expense they've got is paying for the rights to the movies they riff; otherwise, it's designed to be the least-expensive show that you could make.

The comparison to Lucha Underground isn't really fair, because 1.that show had 39 episodes in its season, 2.they had a MUCH larger cast of onscreen performers, 3.it was largely taped in front of a live audience, 4.it was a multi-camera shoot with a level of complex lighting, camerawork, and general production which is the polar opposite of MST3K's intentionally unambitious cheapness. Making an episode of that show involves all kinds of technical and especially personnel problems which a glorified talk show like MST3K simply never has to deal with.

As for the Kickstarter: reading it in full, the one part that seemed suspicious to me was their smarmy no-selling of the "Risks and Challenges" segment. They just made a bunch of lame jokes there, not even trying to seriously discuss any possible obstacles in their way. Of course lots of Kickstarter projects try their damndest to handwave away the risks and tend to misuse that section of the page in a politician-esque bit of PR claiming that there aren't any real risks, but I always hate it when anyone does that and I'm not making exceptions even for this otherwise fine bunch of people.

[Bustronaut]

Joel & Jim have *decades* of experience doing shows like this, so I'm pretty sure they know about the Risks and Challenges involved in such a series.  $100k generally covers catering on a reality show these days.

 

Breaking down the numbers on this, They're looking to spend $900k on start-up costs ($15,000 of which is Crow/Servo puppets, according to the last "rewards" tier)  With each episode averaging $366k for production costs.  That may seem cheap for a series, but we're not talking about a normal TV show anymore.  Cinematic Titanic & Rifftrax/Film Crew probably have *much* smaller budgets, but after you've been doing something for so long, you know which corners you can cut and still put on a professional presentation.

[piranesi]

The only thing available online of the guy I saw do something once is the teaser trailer and that's only from when he had put about $70,000 in.

 

After this he raised another $35,000 to go to Skywalker Sound and do audio correcting and somewhere else to do color correcting.  I think he spent three days at Skywalker for the 24 minute show:

 

 

 

It looks nice to me.  It has puppets. At least three studio sets.  Some pretty expensive looking makeup (George Lucas has a whole face and neck thing).  A Spaceship.  Some green screen stuff.  And in no way looks worse than an episode of MST3K.

 

It's just a pilot and I'm sure if this guy's show was sold to someone they would remake the whole thing for a lot more money per episode but I don't think I'm crazy to say this 100k thing looks as much like a t.v. show as MST3K ever did. 

[Ace]

Interesting illegal use of music he's got there. Somehow I don't think he got Danny Elfman's approval. I can see how he saved money.

 

One of the additional costs is the movies this time. He's not intending for them to do public domain and cheap films. The plan is to go more 70s-80s this time.

[piranesi]

Interesting illegal use of music he's got there. Somehow I don't think he got Danny Elfman's approval. I can see how he saved money.

 

One of the additional costs is the movies this time. He's not intending for them to do public domain and cheap films. The plan is to go more 70s-80s this time.

 

The films probably do make a big difference.

 

On the puppet guy show, that's a teaser trailer.  In the actual pilot he has an original score. I'm not sure why I'm advocating for it other than he's been really open about the process of making it and it's been interesting to watch it come together.  He live-streamed some of the sound editing and color sessions. 

 

This was his breakdown of projected post-production costs:

 

• $2,000 for Titles
• $3,000 for Music
• $3,000 for Color
• $7,000 for Sound Design
• $10,000 for VFX

I think he ended up raising enough money to spend more than that on sound and color and I think music in this case was only for the end credit music and the rest was already done.

[Pete]

I don't think that matters... Just donating will give Misties a sense of ownership.

And add me to those who would not like Jonah Ray as host. Mike and Joel were likeable... Jonah would be a good mad maybe.

 

Blaine Capatch could work. He definitely has the obscuro references down pat.

[piranesi]

Oh god he's also similarly obsessed with nerdy hobbies/crafts like Joel. That's kind of perfect.

[jstout]

Plus, that's By God Josh Robert Thompson in Piranesi's example, the voice of the fantastically great Geoff Peterson on the sorely, sorely missed Late Late Show with Craig Ferguson.

 

I dunno about the money thing. I can't see the MST3K guys making off with suitcases full of cash to Mexico, but I still think they're going about this backward.

[Pete]

Plus, that's By God Josh Robert Thompson in Piranesi's example, the voice of the fantastically great Geoff Peterson on the sorely, sorely missed Late Late Show with Craig Ferguson.

 

I dunno about the money thing. I can't see the MST3K guys making off with suitcases full of cash to Mexico, but I still think they're going about this backward.

 

 

Bring Back MYSTERY SCIENCE THEATER 3000

by Joel Hodgson

 

 

9,257 backers

 

$1,074,308 pledged of $2,000,000 goal

 

30 days to go

 

Over $1 million pledged in 24 hours. Yep... totally backward.  

[jstout]

It's not that I think the Kickstarter is a bad idea, it's just that there has to be a way to reduce the amount of money you're hitting up your fans for or get more bang out of their buck?

Like, can you partner with someone to get the films cheaper? Is there a cheaper place to shoot?

[clintthecrippler]

I also wouldnt be surprised if a lot of the money was going to film acquisition. I remember at some point during the original run there was news floating around the movie distro houses were upping their usage fees as the series gained in popularity.

[Ace]

It's not that I think the Kickstarter is a bad idea, it's just that there has to be a way to reduce the amount of money you're hitting up your fans for or get more bang out of their buck?

Like, can you partner with someone to get the films cheaper? Is there a cheaper place to shoot?

 

There are definitely cheaper places to shoot than L.A., but you wouldn't have as much of an easy access to writers.

[piranesi]

I also wouldnt be surprised if a lot of the money was going to film acquisition. I remember at some point during the original run there was news floating around the movie distro houses were upping their usage fees as the series gained in popularity.

 

 

That is going to be an interesting dance to watch.   People who own rights to movies that this might be their last chance to squeeze some profit out of it, but weighing that against how much of a renewed life the movie itself gets from this.

 

And the BB guys having to guess how much they might actually make from however they are going to distribute each episode vs. how much each movie is going to cost.

 

Someone holding rights to a super shitty 80s movie might really miss out if they price themselves out of being part of this.  Or they could give it to them cheaply and the whole thing could not end up being a big deal and they missed out.

[Bustronaut]

If Consolidated Puppets really DID buy Best Brains, then they're probably still gonna be based out of Minnesota.

 

Hey! Here it is!

[Ace]

 

I also wouldnt be surprised if a lot of the money was going to film acquisition. I remember at some point during the original run there was news floating around the movie distro houses were upping their usage fees as the series gained in popularity.

 

 

That is going to be an interesting dance to watch.   People who own rights to movies that this might be their last chance to squeeze some profit out of it, but weighing that against how much of a renewed life the movie itself gets from this.

 

And the BB guys having to guess how much they might actually make from however they are going to distribute each episode vs. how much each movie is going to cost.

 

I'm guessing Shout Factory will be a bit of help with that.

[jstout]

They have a ton of distribution rights, but would this be covered in their existing distribution rights? Maybe they saw something like this happening and buried something deep in a contract, but you'd have to think they'd have to ask permission from movie owners before submitting their movie to the MST3K treatment.

 

From a scan of their Wikipedia page (I know, I know) Shout Factory has a lot of rights, but doesn't seem to outright own much.

[The Comedian]

So I guess Joel and Jim made up, since last I heard they still hated each other's guts...

[Pete]

[piranesi]

Wow.  Just overhead on the Kickstarter is $700,000 to get things going!  

[Ace]

Here's the rest of Joel elaborating on the cost.

 

 

 

Question #1: Why do you need so much money?

Believe me, man. I hear you. If it really cost $2 million just to make three episodes, we'd be spending almost $700K per show! And you're right: by itself, an episode of MST3K doesn't cost nearly that much.

But the explanation is actually pretty simple:

A. We don't get to keep all of the money we raise on Kickstarter.

• Out of the first $2,000,000, we have to pay about 8% – that's $160,000 – in CAMPAIGN FEES to Kickstarter and the credit card processor.

• Then we have to cover all of the REWARD AND SHIPPING COSTS to design, produce, print, sort and ship all of the rewards we're offering in exchange for your pledge. (Those t-shirts aren't free, you know!) That costs about 27%, so that's another $540,000.

• We're not charging you twice for shipping, I promise. Even though Kickstarter asks you to add more for shipping after you pledge, they count that money toward the total we've raised, but we still have to spend that money on, you know... shipping!

• So, out of the first $2,000,000 we raise, we have to spend $700,000 just on the costs of this Kickstarter campaign!

B. Then, we have a lot of startup costs just to get the show into production.

To shoot new episodes, there's a lot we'll need to do up front: creating concept art and designs, building sets, making models, creating costumes, adding new features to upgrade the robots, and all sorts of other things. All of that work costs money, which is why that first $2,000,000 includes $550,000 for STARTUP COSTS. The good part is that every penny of that ends up on screen, where you can see it.

C. But... the more episodes we make, the less each episode costs!

We have to spend $550,000 up front, no matter how many episodes we make. If we only make 3 episodes, these costs increase the budget for each episode by $183K… but if we make a full 12, they only increase it by $46K each!

Anyway, once you take out the CAMPAIGN, REWARD and STARTUP COSTS, there's a lot less than $2M left. 

In fact, that leaves just $750,000 for THREE FEATURE-LENGTH EPISODES OF MST3K, which – I hope – sounds a lot more reasonable than $2,000,000!

At the end of the day, our goal is to make each feature-length episode of MST3K for around $250,000.

To put that in perspective, that means we're spending less to create 90 minutes of MST3K than even the lower-end reality shows spend to make 22 minutes! (Really makes ya think, don't it?)

And remember: that $250K isn't just to hire our writers, cast and crew, or rent equipment and space. It also includes the cost of LICENSING MOVIE RIGHTS, and that can get pretty expensive. Which brings me to the last point:

D. If we want the best cheesy movies, we have to pay for them.

Right now, none of the movies I'd like to include in the next season are in the public domain. That means we have to pay the owner of each movie a substantial amount to include it onMST3K. That would be expensive no matter what... and that's before the owners realize what we're planning to do with them!

Now, I know that was a lot of detail. If you're as worn out from reading about this as I am from writing about it, here's a wicked cool graphic that sums the whole thing up:

[Pete]

Jonah Ray confirmed as new host.

[odessasteps]

Jonah Ray confirmed as new host.

I am confirmed as out.

[cool arrow]

Oh well, it was nice while it lasted.

[Guest Stefanie Without Stefanie]

I'll still give it a try, but if Chris Hardwick pops up and starts screaming LOOK AT THIS I LOVE THIS NERDY THING SEE I'M A NERD SUPPORT ME like he usually does, then yeah, I'm out.