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[MM16] GREAT 8: AJ STYLES vs. BAYLEY


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MM16: Great 8: AJ STYLES vs BAYLEY  

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Just a reminder that Styles had a great match against Ibushi, two against Okada, two against Nakamura, and great run in the G1 Climax, then killed it in the Rumble and has managed to get people interested in Jericho again. That's a lot of high end wrestling from one guy. I agree Bayley's had a great run, but nothing like that.

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AJ had a great year.

 

Bayley had one of the best years ever AND helped make women's wrestling relevant to many viewers who couldn't give two shits in 2014.

 

Bayley gets my vote here for sure.

....

It's like Joshi wrestlers and Shimmer just did not matter before NXT or something.

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AJ had a great year.

 

Bayley had one of the best years ever AND helped make women's wrestling relevant to many viewers who couldn't give two shits in 2014.

 

Bayley gets my vote here for sure.

....

It's like Joshi wrestlers and Shimmer just did not matter before NXT or something.

 

 

What the fuck is Joshi and Shimmer?  Is that like what FCW was before NXT or something?

 

If these two were a couple, they'd be Bay J Styles.

Anyway vote Bayley.

 

Bayley would never turn on AJ the way Jericho did.

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AJ had a great year.

 

Bayley had one of the best years ever AND helped make women's wrestling relevant to many viewers who couldn't give two shits in 2014.

 

Bayley gets my vote here for sure.

....

It's like Joshi wrestlers and Shimmer just did not matter before NXT or something.

 

For the majority of wrestling fans, yes. Look, you don't have to dig it, but it's true. LOTS of fans have been brought to appreciate women's wrestling through NXT and the Four Horsewomen in general. And yes, those same fans couldn't give the above mentioned two shits about joshi or Shimmer. The wrestling bubble is indeed a thing.

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Heh. I gave Bayley the Bernie vote, AKA the principle vote, AKA the vote for the person I've never watched but it's better than voting for the gloves and the tattoo and the Bullet Club and the homophobia no matter how good of a worker he is. ASESINO!

 

EDIT: Please nobody try and "clarify" this for me and call it the Clinton vote

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None of AJ's matches contained the emotion of Bayley/Sasha at NXT Takeover Brooklyn. 

That partly has to do with WWE's style of creating a story driven arc which is catered to actual story driven emotion than a NJPW which more of a competition between dojos and factions, and Sasha being such a damn good heel. 

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AJ had a great year.

 

Bayley had one of the best years ever AND helped make women's wrestling relevant to many viewers who couldn't give two shits in 2014.

 

Bayley gets my vote here for sure.

....

It's like Joshi wrestlers and Shimmer just did not matter before NXT or something.

 

For the majority of wrestling fans, yes. Look, you don't have to dig it, but it's true. LOTS of fans have been brought to appreciate women's wrestling through NXT and the Four Horsewomen in general. And yes, those same fans couldn't give the above mentioned two shits about joshi or Shimmer. The wrestling bubble is indeed a thing.

 

Oh please.

 

People have always appreciated women's wrestling even in the WWE's "wrestling bubble." How do you explain the success of Lita, pre-Matt Hardy slut shaming, and AJ Lee's relatively short stint? Or Kharma/Awesome Kong destroying models and how awesome that was before she was released? You give them a platform and the time and fans will give a shit about it. The issue is and what I think should be rephrased is that no one thought WWE women's wrestling would be worth of damn after Mickie James, Lita, Trish Stratus left with actual athletes and performers being replaced by models who were taught basics (apparently deciding to go with the Trish Stratus path and not realizing that she is an anomaly and should not be the default way to hire people). The WWE made people numb to the idea of women's wrestling and that was partly to do with them not hiring any of the said Joshi's that we are certainly appreciating now(Asuka) and SHIMMER stars. Even Sasha Banks who has gone on record that she would be in Stardom or REINA if it weren't for WWE hiring her. That is why they exist. There was void and those companies picked it up. Hell, TNA only exists because of the success of their women's wrestling or what success their women's wrestling used to have. 

 

Don't blame the fans when you know damn well that it's not their fault that the WWE presented women's wrestling as the bathroom break for nearly 10 years. Bayley and the Horsewomen did not help the fans realize that women's wrestling was relevant. A lot of them already knew and were lethargic to WWE's women's wrestling. And given on how you have on record that JR had to goad Vince in hiring Gail Kim because "he did not think Asian women were attractive" and how Sexy Star was turned down by WWE because "women have to look like they could model for playboy," they were right. And this hiring model discounted a lot of women who were more than capable. All Bayley and the Horsewomen did was move past a creepy old man's belief that women needed to be objectified and eye candy to be successful. Given how fans reacted to women's matches prior NXT and after the attitude era of Bra and Panties matches, if you present the fans a reason to care about anything and that anything was actually good, then they will care regardless of gender. So miss me with that bullshit that it was the fans that needed to realize that women's wrestling could be good when it was the company that was apparently the blame.

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I'm pretty sure they turned down Sexy Star because she sucks

When Brie Bella and Eva Marie are on the roster, her performance is irrelevant. Especially since that is what John Laurentiis said of her try-out. He was more concerned with how she looks underneath the mask.

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Can someone without a daughter explain to me what about Bayley makes you so emotionally invested in her matches to this degree?

 

Genuinely curious as someone who appreciates her work yet doesn't quite understand the overwhelming outpouring of emotion over every single little thing she does.

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(I actually fully admit that I might not be into Bayley as a force as much if I didn't have a young daughter)

 

That said, I meant what I said about her being an earnest, likable, babyface champ who just seems like she's glad to be there, that they actually have overcome the odds again and again, which is monumentally rare in WWE post 2000. 

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(I actually fully admit that I might not be into Bayley as a force as much if I didn't have a young daughter)

 

That said, I meant what I said about her being an earnest, likable, babyface champ who just seems like she's glad to be there, that they actually have overcome the odds again and again, which is monumentally rare in WWE post 2000. 

 

So it's more the booking than anything about her work specifically? If you swapped her and Becky, for example, is Becky the one getting all this love?

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Bayley's put in the character work to transform from "no self-confidence, just happy to be here" to "person who got serious about winning, but still lacks self-confidence" to "ace who actually has self-affirmed her own abilities through hard work, but still with enough self-esteem issues to doubt herself against Nia Jax or Asuka or some challenge that looks like it might be too much for her."

 

She's really, really, REALLY good at showing both confidence and vulnerability through her mannerisms, facial expressions, and selling. It's sort of like asking "Why do people get behind Sami Zayn?" I mean, why would I need a daughter or niece to get behind a wrestler who is so good at portraying these very real, very common emotions and whose character work fits right in with a struggle of human commonality - the struggle of overcoming self-doubt to become self-actualized?

 

No one ever asks how people without sons or nephews can find a way to get behind Sami Zayn or Daniel Bryan. What a weird question. 

 

And no, Becky Lynch couldn't pull those things off as well as Bayley does, though I think Becky Lynch could do a fairly reasonable facsimile of that character to some degree. 

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(I actually fully admit that I might not be into Bayley as a force as much if I didn't have a young daughter)

 

That said, I meant what I said about her being an earnest, likable, babyface champ who just seems like she's glad to be there, that they actually have overcome the odds again and again, which is monumentally rare in WWE post 2000. 

 

So it's more the booking than anything about her work specifically? If you swapped her and Becky, for example, is Becky the one getting all this love?

 

 

Maybe, but at the same time, if they put Eva Marie in this role, it wouldn't work. Becky's skilled. Bayley's skilled. Opportunity and presentation matter when it comes to wrestling. That said,she had to live up to the part and she does. Some of that is being earnest. I broke down the Alexa match in the last round at great detail. She came out with righteous fury for what Alexa had did. She worked her physical advantage. When Alexa took over, she garnered sympathy with her selling. Her hope spots were well-timed and made the fans feel like they mattered. Her comeback was fiery. Some of it is absolutely the presentation, but she's also effective and hugely believable in the role. She's given better material to work with than a guy like Reigns, sure, but I think there are only a couple of times in the last year that he manage to come off as the babyface that he needs to be (Mania, the HHH beatdown, the two Sheamus matches). On the other hand, she pretty much always comes off as that.

 

I think Becky might be able to pull it off, to be honest, but Bayley's the one who DID pull it off, and she did it in a company where almost no one else has managed it, either through a lack of opportunity or a lack of talent/execution, for a very long time.

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(I actually fully admit that I might not be into Bayley as a force as much if I didn't have a young daughter)

 

That said, I meant what I said about her being an earnest, likable, babyface champ who just seems like she's glad to be there, that they actually have overcome the odds again and again, which is monumentally rare in WWE post 2000. 

 

So it's more the booking than anything about her work specifically? If you swapped her and Becky, for example, is Becky the one getting all this love?

 

 

A good chunk of the voting in this tournament is based on booking.  If Asuka was out there having 50/50 matches and not given the presentation she has been given, how far would she make it?  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

I guess the question is how does a wrestler do with the booking they're given?  Shit man, I don't know.  I voted for Bayley because AJ's a chinless homophobic dogwhistle racist Billy Ray Cyrus looking  motherfucker.

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I also think that Bayley being able to get a pure babyface gimmick over like that when modern crowds are quick to turn on that sort of thing is an impressive achievement and deserves more love. 

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It's so rare in wrestling for a performer to show self doubt, especially as a baby face. Even Daniel Bryan, who was a total underdog, always carried himself as someone who knew he could whip everyone's ass. He was a super human, just not built like one. Bayley has been able to get over her character by portraying herself as unbelievably human. People tell her she isn't good enough and some part of her will always believe them. I can't help but identify with that. When she wins, she's not only winning against her opponent, but against herself. I can't help but get caught up in it. 

 

I also understand that Bayley as currently constructed won't get over on Raw, which is program based around superhumans. But she's perfect for where she is at the moment, which is what's important to me right now. 

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No one ever asks how people without sons or nephews can find a way to get behind Sami Zayn or Daniel Bryan. What a weird question.

 

The reason I asked the question that way is because a lot of the people who feel an emotional connection to Bayley on this board have talked about it having a lot to do with their daughters.

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Can someone without a daughter explain to me what about Bayley makes you so emotionally invested in her matches to this degree?

 

Genuinely curious as someone who appreciates her work yet doesn't quite understand the overwhelming outpouring of emotion over every single little thing she does.

Was going to post a fairly long thing about this, but Smelly beat me to it.

 

But for me, it's not just what happened this year with one match or even one feud.  It's the story from a couple years ago where Bayley debuted and was way in over her head.  But she was so damn likeable that you were just begging for her to toughen up and make something of herself.  It's been an emotional investment for a couple years, and it culminated in Brooklyn.  This might not be something that would work on the main roster because they wouldn't have the patience to pull it off.  But in NXT where things are allowed to develop in time it worked and it was beautiful.

 

It has nothing to do with having kids or being a neckbeard or Brony, to me it feels like a lame reason for those that haven't had that emotional investment all this time.  I don't get Lucha or other forms so it's likely I miss out on why certain wrestlers are as good as advertised.  But following along and seeing the things Bayley the character had to deal with it's been awesome.  And Bayley the person is very much the right person that could pull this off.  With all due respect to the others, with most anybody else it wouldn't have worked the way that this did.

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