Labor Day Raw (2 September Raw for everyone else)

[Fat Spanish Waiter]

The important thing is to complain about how badly an angle has paid off before it has paid off. That way you can boost your internet credibility by saying I TOLD YOU SO and it doesn't at all reflect how shitty your life must be.

[JRGoldman]

The entire roster is too afraid to fight HHH except for Daniel Bryan. No one will even speak up against him, but Bryan is coming out and running him down on the mic. Legends and other authority figures are telling him to get in line for his own good, and Bryan is basically telling them all to fuck off. None of this is Bryan getting buried. Why? Because he isn't being buried. 

 

We all want continuity, both in story telling and character, but it would be a giant left turn if suddenly HHH, the guy who has been portrayed as smarter than basically every wrestler ever and knows exactly when to pick his spots, is showing ass and stooging around for Daniel Bryan, slightly unhinged vegan. It would be actively bad booking if Bryan had come out on top for the past three weeks. Any time he has had the odds even, he has destroyed people. This includes Big Show last night, who threw himself around like a 500 lb Seth Rollins for 10 minutes. 

 

Just because we all remember watching VHS tapes of Bryan fighting John Walters and Michael Shane doesn't mean he should be beating up 5 dudes at once every week leading up to the PPV at which he is the underdog babyface. 

[w. josh]

The important thing is to complain about how badly an angle has paid off before it has paid off. That way you can boost your internet credibility by saying I TOLD YOU SO and it doesn't at all reflect how shitty your life must be.

 

Well sure, but the MOST important thing is to never listen to people who disagree with you and respond to the point they're actually trying to make, but instead just keep repeating the same stupid pithy bullshit over and over again and then fall back on "it's a gimmick, bro!" when you get called out on it. And to make hamfisted blanket statements that perfectly encapsulate your entire worldview while seemingly lacking the self-awareness to recognize the irony therein.

[JRV]

Mox talking shit to Ziggler was so money

 

It has been THREE WEEKS. Jesus Christ. Three shows. Having some patience. This is going to go on for a few months. It will be fine.

I just wrote this exact post, but I noticed yours.

 

Also how the fuck are there always 5 million pages by the time this Dutch motherfucker's got around to skipping thru Raw?!

[Fat Spanish Waiter]

The important thing is to complain about how badly an angle has paid off before it has paid off. That way you can boost your internet credibility by saying I TOLD YOU SO and it doesn't at all reflect how shitty your life must be.

Well sure, but the MOST important thing is to never listen to people who disagree with you and respond to the point they're actually trying to make, but instead just keep repeating the same stupid pithy bullshit over and over again and then fall back on "it's a gimmick, bro!" when you get called out on it. And to make hamfisted blanket statements that perfectly encapsulate your entire worldview while seemingly lacking the self-awareness to recognize the irony therein.

The point is: this angle will suck.My point is: not yet.You can whine and complain the whole time, or you can whine and complain when Show takes Bryan's spot. Why not wait until you get fucked before complaining about how painful the experience is?

[Dolfan in NYC]

I'm as patient as the next guy, I'm just really, really fearful Night of Champions is ending with Bryan ending on his back KO'ed at the fist of a freshly turned Big Show. Which of course, draws out the angle more and is what they ultimately want. I think the natives are restless because Bryan is not getting anything at all. And yeah, I know they're trying to change the way stuffing instead of potatoes is booked to make people more patient for payoffs, but the fact is, when you're booking yourself to be SO dominant, you really run the risk of people tuning out.

 

For the last 15+ years, we have been collectively trained to think an angle lasts 2-3 months and sometimes the good guy wins, sometimes the bad guy wins. But if the good/bad guy wins over and over and over people are just not going to know how to react other than "well this guy just can't hang with the other guy so screw this, what else is on".

 

Also, completely unrelated.... AJ is in a weird tweener mode. Running down everyone on the Divas Forever or whatever the fuck it's called for not being as good as her, and the crowd is reacting wrong because they're not saying "Boo", they're saying, "Hey, she's right."   I have no idea how they're playing out this angle, but none of those other 3 in the Fatal 4 way can lace AJ's boots in the ring or on the mic. 

[JRV]

Bryan is not getting anything at all.

I am praying to god I read something wrong and this is unwarranted, but..

 

CLEAN PIN OVER JOHN CENA & CAREER CROWNING EXTENDED WWE CHAMPIONSHIP CELEBRATION

[w. josh]

The entire roster is too afraid to fight HHH except for Daniel Bryan. No one will even speak up against him, but Bryan is coming out and running him down on the mic. Legends and other authority figures are telling him to get in line for his own good, and Bryan is basically telling them all to fuck off. None of this is Bryan getting buried. Why? Because he isn't being buried. 

 

We all want continuity, both in story telling and character, but it would be a giant left turn if suddenly HHH, the guy who has been portrayed as smarter than basically every wrestler ever and knows exactly when to pick his spots, is showing ass and stooging around for Daniel Bryan, slightly unhinged vegan. It would be actively bad booking if Bryan had come out on top for the past three weeks. Any time he has had the odds even, he has destroyed people. This includes Big Show last night, who threw himself around like a 500 lb Seth Rollins for 10 minutes. 

 

Just because we all remember watching VHS tapes of Bryan fighting John Walters and Michael Shane doesn't mean he should be beating up 5 dudes at once every week leading up to the PPV at which he is the underdog babyface. 

 

But to be fair, a lot of people are saying that he should be getting beaten down and the roster should be put in their place - just not as poorly as it's been done so far. You can agree with the story and still hate the storytelling. Specific to last night, for example, and as others have pointed out already: either book Bryan as Show's equal instead of a guy with no chance once Show starts trying to fight him, or have Show refuse to fight at all and try to lie down for Bryan. Then end RAW the same way. Still a beatdown, still stacked odds, but the faces don't look like absolute morons with no chance whatsoever.

 

 

 

The important thing is to complain about how badly an angle has paid off before it has paid off. That way you can boost your internet credibility by saying I TOLD YOU SO and it doesn't at all reflect how shitty your life must be.

Well sure, but the MOST important thing is to never listen to people who disagree with you and respond to the point they're actually trying to make, but instead just keep repeating the same stupid pithy bullshit over and over again and then fall back on "it's a gimmick, bro!" when you get called out on it. And to make hamfisted blanket statements that perfectly encapsulate your entire worldview while seemingly lacking the self-awareness to recognize the irony therein.

The point is: this angle will suck.My point is: not yet.You can whine and complain the whole time, or you can whine and complain when Show takes Bryan's spot. Why not wait until you get fucked before complaining about how painful the experience is?

 

 

But a lot of people aren't saying, "the angle will suck." They're saying, "the execution so far is pretty fucking iffy, and that makes me worry about whether or not they can actually pay it off successfully." That's an entirely fair point worth a discussion, and it doesn't deserve to just get shouted down with "hyurk hyurk marks hyurk hyurk worked hyurk hyurk losers!" every week. Ignore everyone who's actually, explicitly saying it's definitely doomed and WWE is shit and no one should watch it, sure. But don' t act like every single person who disagrees with you is "whining and complaining" and making the same hivemind point.

[Fat Spanish Waiter]

Wait is AJ good in the ring?

I usually skip diva matches.

[Dolfan in NYC]

 

Bryan is not getting anything at all.

I am praying to god I read something wrong and this is unwarranted, but..

 

CLEAN PIN OVER JOHN CENA & CAREER CROWNING EXTENDED WWE CHAMPIONSHIP CELEBRATION

 

Kick Wham Pedigree immediately after said celeration. Lay down for 2 minutes while Randy Orton walks back in and cashes in.

 

And who cares if he beats the Shield over and over?  On the top level they're jobbers. The #1 Contender to the WWE Championships SHOULD beat the US Champ and the tag champs one on one easily.  He hasn't even had the opportunity to get physical with Orton or HHH.  

 

Which to the crowd means one of two things:  a) They're terrified of him.  or He's not a threat to them.

 

One sided booking leads to thinking the latter.

[Fat Spanish Waiter]

The entire roster is too afraid to fight HHH except for Daniel Bryan. No one will even speak up against him, but Bryan is coming out and running him down on the mic. Legends and other authority figures are telling him to get in line for his own good, and Bryan is basically telling them all to fuck off. None of this is Bryan getting buried. Why? Because he isn't being buried. We all want continuity, both in story telling and character, but it would be a giant left turn if suddenly HHH, the guy who has been portrayed as smarter than basically every wrestler ever and knows exactly when to pick his spots, is showing ass and stooging around for Daniel Bryan, slightly unhinged vegan. It would be actively bad booking if Bryan had come out on top for the past three weeks. Any time he has had the odds even, he has destroyed people. This includes Big Show last night, who threw himself around like a 500 lb Seth Rollins for 10 minutes. Just because we all remember watching VHS tapes of Bryan fighting John Walters and Michael Shane doesn't mean he should be beating up 5 dudes at once every week leading up to the PPV at which he is the underdog babyface.

But to be fair, a lot of people are saying that he should be getting beaten down and the roster should be put in their place - just not as poorly as it's been done so far. You can agree with the story and still hate the storytelling. Specific to last night, for example, and as others have pointed out already: either book Bryan as Show's equal instead of a guy with no chance once Show starts trying to fight him, or have Show refuse to fight at all and try to lie down for Bryan. Then end RAW the same way. Still a beatdown, still stacked odds, but the

The important thing is to complain about how badly an angle has paid off before it has paid off. That way you can boost your internet credibility by saying I TOLD YOU SO and it doesn't at all reflect how shitty your life must be.

Well sure, but the MOST important thing is to never listen to people who disagree with you and respond to the point they're actually trying to make, but instead just keep repeating the same stupid pithy bullshit over and over again and then fall back on "it's a gimmick, bro!" when you get called out on it. And to make hamfisted blanket statements that perfectly encapsulate your entire worldview while seemingly lacking the self-awareness to recognize the irony therein.

The point is: this angle will suck.My point is: not yet.You can whine and complain the whole time, or you can whine and complain when Show takes Bryan's spot. Why not wait until you get fucked before complaining about how painful the experience is?

But a lot of people aren't saying, "the angle will suck." They're saying, "the execution so far is pretty fucking iffy, and that makes me worry about whether or not they can actually pay it off successfully." That's an entirely fair point worth a discussion, and it doesn't deserve to just get shouted down with "hyurk hyurk marks hyurk hyurk worked hyurk hyurk losers!" every week. Ignore everyone who's actuially, explicitly saying it's definitely doomed and WWE is shit and no one should watch it, sure. But don' t act like every single person who disagrees with you is "whining and complaining" and making the same hivemind point.

So what you're saying is my comment wasn't really aimed at you but you took it that way?I was specifically talking to that usual group of clowns. Phantom Lord and his crew of mingebags like Rev, Mgfanjay, other dudes I can't remember.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

Show crying is like the Davey Richards superplex spot. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean that you should. Really, I'm not a fan of the way Show has been involved in this at all. It just makes no sense to me that he would care this much about, well, any other wrestler really, but especially Bryan who he has had issues with in the not too distant past. Why couldn't he have just gone out and had a good, clean, sportsmanlike wrestling match? The whole thing about him being broke, and being scared of dying because he's a giant was pretty silly too. Got flashbacks to the Shawn/JBL feud when Shawn was apparently penniless.

 

Some people seem to not realise that there are other options apart from 'Bryan smites his enemies' and 'Bryan gets beat down to end every single show', and maybe some of those should be explored. I don't think it's a 'we want instant gratification' thing, so much as a 'let's have some progression in the story' thing. For me, I'm not terribly concerned with how Bryan is being booked right now, and am certainly excited at the prospect of Bryan heading an anti-establishment alliance to fight back, but I can see where people are getting a little twitchy on this.

 

I was totally a mark during that Cody/Orton match. I was actually shaking a little with nerves as it neared its conclusion. Really glad the fans responded to it in the right way, and Cody knocked his promo out the park. If we get a Rhodes family reunion out of this I may just cream myself.

[Fat Spanish Waiter]

Also I'm on my phone and can't edit this quote fests easily, so you'll have to chop it down for the sake of everybody, pal.

[Cristobal]

 

 

The important thing is to complain about how badly an angle has paid off before it has paid off. That way you can boost your internet credibility by saying I TOLD YOU SO and it doesn't at all reflect how shitty your life must be.

Well sure, but the MOST important thing is to never listen to people who disagree with you and respond to the point they're actually trying to make, but instead just keep repeating the same stupid pithy bullshit over and over again and then fall back on "it's a gimmick, bro!" when you get called out on it. And to make hamfisted blanket statements that perfectly encapsulate your entire worldview while seemingly lacking the self-awareness to recognize the irony therein.

The point is: this angle will suck.My point is: not yet.

 

Yes yet. The angle sucks right now. It may get better. It isn't better right now.

[w. josh]

So what you're saying is my comment wasn't really aimed at you but you took it that way?I was specifically talking to that usual group of clowns. Phantom Lord and his crew of mingebags like Rev, Mgfanjay, other dudes I can't remember.

 

 

I'm more talking about the royal "you" than you specifically - I don't post enough or have a unique enough presence to make anything personal (well, except for that "it's a gimmick, bro" crack, which was sooooo aimed at you). I'm saying that anyone who immediately starts lecturing anyone else that they're getting worked and it's only been x weeks and just repeats the same lines over and over again could maybe back off and have a discussion instead of just yelling things that make them feel smart.

[The Natural]

Mox talking shit to Ziggler was so money

 

It has been THREE WEEKS. Jesus Christ. Three shows. Having some patience. This is going to go on for a few months. It will be fine.

I just wrote this exact post, but I noticed yours.

 

Also how the fuck are there always 5 million pages by the time this Dutch motherfucker's got around to skipping thru Raw?!

 

On your last point, I'm in the same boat as you sometimes. RAW threads seem to have grown since Daniel Bryan vs. the WWE Machine started.

[goc]

I'm glad everyone is an expert on what "the crowd" thinks of how Daniel Bryan is being treated. Unfortunately the "the crowd is going to turn on Bryan for being a loser" thing hasn't seemed to actually play out in his reactions yet. Just keep your fingers crossed and your keyboards ready to be the first to write "I told you so!" on the first show in front of a shitty crowd where his reactions are weaker.

[Bustronaut]

Oh look, the same 4 people have taken over the Raw thread again.

[Cristobal]

Oh look, the same 4 people have taken over the Raw thread again.

 

Of the ten posters with more than ten posts in last week's Raw thread, the only one with more than ten posts so far in this week is Overly Critical Man.

[Greggulator]

Notes as I watch the Hulu version (so I think I missed a PTPs match):* I really liked the opening segment a lot. The Shield are such awesome goons at ringside.* Ambrose's attack was nice and brutal. I loved him telling Dolph he has to learn to "respect the business." Like Dean and his creep friends are these paragons of heroism. Great heel stuff. Ryback's a really good jerk. I really can't wait for Dolph's fiery comeback as well.* Steph's such a self-involved jerk. I loved her telling Show "This hurts me more than you." I actually had a boss say that to me once when I was being let go from a job. Show really needs to get better with his money, though -- the market did really great this year. I loved Steph saying these things are public information. I can totally see her ordering some paralegal to go through Show's records and finding his name pop up in bankruptcy court or his property with a lien against it. The "you're going to die early" stuff was real evil, too. This added backstory also explains why Show and his foolproof contract didn't do anything in previous weeks -- he knew about the tenuous situation his family has been placed in because of his strip-mall real estate ventures.

 

* The Cody/Randy match was great. I don't think I've ever come around in liking a guy more than I have Orton. He was terrible just a few weeks ago. He's now so insanely watchable. I loved the backbreaker off the corner. Cody fought with a ton of heart and got his future at stake over really effectively. Really good match. Not as high-end as Bryan/Rollins from lat week but still very effective storytelling. Cody's promo later on was so great and fiery. He's going to be awesome making his comeback.

 

* Punk's promo was sorta just filling time but was fiery and defiant and everything I love about Punk. He read the (pretty awful) crowd perfectly when he did the Foley-style hometown namedrop. No doubt he shoe-horned that in on the fly to get that pop.

 

* Also, I'm going to put this in to bold the following: This week's show was on a very big travel day in Des Moines. This crowd would have been DOA just a few weeks ago. They were a little into it tonight -- as much as a crowd in a small Midwestern City has been into a show. Next week's a go-away show in Toronto. They should do the rally there since it will be historically hot. That is when you do the big rally. Toronto's own hometown hero Edge will be there next week and no doubt will rally the troops. So will anti-establishment Christian. This is all coming together and will be great.

 

* The divas match, as it was, was decent. On paper, a divas triple threat match is terrible. They held it together okay, though. AJ's crazy, which explains her run-in like that. They put AJ in a good spot where she's polarizing. Steph making a somewhat fair decision regarding the divas also is sort of continuity, since she's been a bit of a promoter of the divas division in the past.

 

* Bryan not caring about the plight of other guys is a good little twist.* The Wyatt promo wasn't included in the Hulu version but you know I saw that. Nothing else to say about this dude anymore. He's pretty much perfect at these things. It hasn't translated 100% live yet. Hopefully it will.* WTF is everyone talking about in this Big Show/Bryan match? This was pretty much a 50/50 match with Bryan chopping The Big Show down a whole bunch. The Shield then did the Triple Powerbomb -- as close as there is to a death move in the WWE -- and took out Bryan after he was in a competitive match against The World's Largest Athlete. Big Show has a history of crying -- he got on his knees and begged Johnny L. for a job. HHH hiding behind Steph was such great cowardice. Randy standing one foot on Brian while holding up the title like he's done anything of note is also terrific.Seriously, this was good stuff. I'm detecting a little disconnect, to quote Bray from a few weeks.

[Dewar]

Cody's springboard dropkick almost got enough height to be considered a missle dropkick. When someone finally nuts up and helps Bryan, the arena is going to explode. Hopefully they won't waste that spot on useless turds like Ziggler and Miz.

[Greggulator]

Wait is AJ good in the ring?I usually skip diva matches.

 

AJ's pretty good. She's better than anyone else they have and it's not really even close. She just carried a pretty green girl named Bailey (who has a very fun "total mark for famous people" gimmick) to a decent match on NXT. I don't think AJ's as good as Trish or Lita or Molly but she's not too far behind. She's pretty limited because of how terrible the girls have been for so long. Thankfully, there's a good crop of ladies in NXT that are going to get called up and make this stuff actually watchable. Summer Rae (Fandango's dancer) is a really good mean girl heel. NXT champ Paige is better than anyone they have on the main roster save for AJ. Goofball Emma is pretty good, too. Ric Flair's daughter Charlotte is ridiculously athletic -- she's still green in terms of knowing where to be, how to use different spots well, etc. but she's got a ton of potential.

[Big Z]

Honestly, a lot of the fans bitching and moaning here really should not be watching. Of course, they would likely become complete bitches about it like Rev, and still inundate the threads with their bullshit. Also, I do not want to here their ideas about how to book angles, because I have zero interest in their idea of pro wrestling.

 

Last night's show was off a level from the last two, but a transition show in Des Moines, Iowa will rarely be a great show. The only guy it may have damaged short or long term is Big Show, and I honestly do not care if he is ever on my television again. It still advanced the angle and built more tension on Randy Orton and HHH.

[JRGoldman]

@ w. josh: I think your point is really reasonable, I guess we just disagree that everything is being done poorly. Could it be done better? Sure, but if I stopped watching wrestling because the storylines aren't perfect every time, I would have stopped watching wrestling probably 30 seconds after I started watching wrestling. I think the one major difference in how we perceived the events from last night is that I thought the Big show match was not a dismissal of Bryan, but a simple variation on the super heavyweight formula; instead of over confidence or disinterest from the larger opponent, the opening segment was built upon reluctance. 

 

I also think people shouldn't overlook Bryan's basically superhuman ability to turn every bad situation in to a win for him. It's unlike anything we've ever seen. The dude basically got the Wrestlemania equivalent of the Warlord rumble treatment and somehow came out more credible and over. Just about the only thing I'd be willing to bet on in this whole angle is people saying yes repeatedly no matter how many times Bryan gets the shit kicked out of him. 

[Kaptain Kayfabe]

 

He was very competitive with and easily knocked down (multiple times) Big Show WHO IS TWICE HIS HEIGHT AND WEIGHT and one of the most heavily pushed killers of the past 17 years.

 

Which match were you watching? Bryan was going all-out against Show who spent half the match yelling "I don't want to do this to you" and when he finally pisses Show off enough, Show dominates him and, after the obligatory fight-back, leaves him laying, presumably beaten, then starts to leave, at which point Shield pick the bones.

 

 

 

I was watching the match where Bryan got splashed in the corner by a 460 pound guy and NO SOLD IT by dropkicking him in the knee seconds later. Bryan took Big Show down several times, even doing the "Yes" series of kicks. Bryan was actually in control until Show caught him with the spear coming off the top rope. It was a simple transition spot, just like in every other match in the history of forever. Show certainly thought he was going to deliver the KO punch at that point, but who's to say DB wouldn't have reversed it? We will never know because it didn't get to that point. I think folks are just seeing things that aren't there because internet darling Daniel Bryan is the one being "screwed" by internet anti-christ Triple H. Y'all are getting worked and it's mind-boggling you can't see that.