Elsalvajeloco Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Well, she's innocent in the sense she's not personally doing anything. My broader point is, we don't ever see the innocent victims. Yeah, she can get a plea deal. That's about all. I felt more sorry for Mama Corleone than Kay. Kay only had to deal with Michael. Mama had to deal with all of her fucking erratic ass kids and in-laws in addition to her first born being violently killed and the attempts on her husband's life before he finally falls over and croaks. Kay is probably whining about being shot at in their vacation home while Mama Corleone is rolling her eyes and saying in her head, "Really, bitch?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisM Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 The Godfather gets a lot of mileage out of never really showing the innocent victims or good guys. The only cop that gets any character at all is the bodyguard of a drug dealer. Kay and Apollonia are pretty much the only innocent characters. Apollonia is the only real innocent victim in either film, because she's murdered solely because of who her husband is. Everyone else is killed because they've either murdered or been a party to murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 On a different note... Judd Hirsch set Jewish people back about forty years in Independence Day. That had to be a message to somebody in the industry. There was no reason for him to be that stereotypical Jewish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Here's the late, great Patrice O'Neal with Jim Norton on Opie and Anthony talking about that and other Independence Day shit. Funny as hell, but not for the easily offended. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Here's the late, great Patrice O'Neal with Jim Norton on Opie and Anthony talking about that and other Independence Day shit. Funny as hell, but not for the easily offended. I'm glad someone posted this because I didn't want to leave the President out either. Man, that character stunk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 The thing is that The Godfather doesn't make any apology for the awfulness of its characters. The entire story is about the moral destruction of Michael Corleone, about the corruption of a man who used to be good. The general tone is one of "oh, isn't it awful that this man has fallen so far?". Fredo and Kay get similar arcs; although to different extents, of course. It's a similar thing with other stories about terrible people, like for example Taxi Driver; although we're made to sympathize with Travis Bickle, we're never supposed to feel like he's JUSTIFIED in his horrible actions. Even when he's rescuing a child prostitute, it still feels like he's doing it for filthy pathological reasons. Natural Born Killers and especially A Clockwork Orange were feature-length apologies for their protagonists, trying to justify their reactions. Their basic tones were "everything these criminals do is really society's fault; and besides, the killers are so much COOLER than their victims!" which is morally unforgivable. Alex, Mickey, and Mallory were consistently seen as being morally, physically, and aesthetically superior to all the people they preyed upon. All their victims were portrayed as "they had it coming" for one reason or another. FUCK that. Worthless defense of worthless characters. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt McGirt Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 No matter how much you hate NBK you've got to get a kick out of Robert Downey Jr. and Tommy Lee Jones though, right? I mean c'mon. Those are two of the most lunatic performances ever. I'm trying to think of a character in a film I love that I arbitrarily hate, which seems to be the aim of this thread, and I got nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 No matter how much you hate NBK you've got to get a kick out of Robert Downey Jr. and Tommy Lee Jones though, right? I mean c'mon. Those are two of the most lunatic performances ever. Robert Downey Jr. is my only reason to watch Natural Born Killers and not stop midway through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt McGirt Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 "I was there; when the shit hit the fan in Grenada, I SAW IT ALL GO DOWN..." Then you've got Jones basically playing a Looney Tunes character. It's fantastic. Think I've got a character I do arbitrarily hate in a movie I love: Nancy Allen in Blow Out. You just want to choke her for being so stupid. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 "I was there; when the shit hit the fan in Grenada, I SAW IT ALL GO DOWN..." Then you've got Jones basically playing a Looney Tunes character. It's fantastic. Think I've got a character I do arbitrarily hate in a movie I love: Nancy Allen in Blow Out. You just want to choke her for being so stupid. JOHN LITHGOW IS KILLING THE WRONG HOOKERS! THE GREATEST FUCKING MOVIE EVER! Should I be cheering him on? Is that wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt McGirt Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Not one to talk considering I voted for Clarence Boddicker in the other thread but yeah. That guy was the definition of "going rogue". The scene in the bathroom at the train station is so nightmarish. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Natural Born Killers and especially A Clockwork Orange were feature-length apologies for their protagonists, trying to justify their reactions. Their basic tones were "everything these criminals do is really society's fault; and besides, the killers are so much COOLER than their victims!" which is morally unforgivable. Alex, Mickey, and Mallory were consistently seen as being morally, physically, and aesthetically superior to all the people they preyed upon. All their victims were portrayed as "they had it coming" for one reason or another. FUCK that. Worthless defense of worthless characters. In general, as soon as movies start arguing "It's society's fault!" I instantly turn off. Yeah, OK. "Society." That's it. That's who's to blame for everything. Not you being an evil little shit or anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.H. Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Here is a question: Are we supposed to like Mitchell as a character in Mitchell, because honestly he's pretty fuckin' repugnant. I'm convinced that Steve Bochco watched Mitchell and thought "I can take this guy and make him redeemable" and created Andy Sipowicz! James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 I sympathized with Kay. When she's talking to Michael in the school yard, deep down, she knows what he's saying is bullshit. But she goes along with it because, you know, she does love the man and hopes for the best. And she's weak. And it takes a few years for it to sink in that it's hopeless. At which point she finally gathers the strength to get the fuck out of there. It's more than Carmella Soprano ever did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 I sympathized with Kay. When she's talking to Michael in the school yard, deep down, she knows what he's saying is bullshit. But she goes along with it because, you know, she does love the man and hopes for the best. And she's weak. And it takes a few years for it to sink in that it's hopeless. At which point she finally gathers the strength to get the fuck out of there. I was looking at an old video (a thing from the CBC IIRC) from 2011 with Gail Sullivan, the wife of Joseph "Mad Dog" Sullivan. In it, you can actually believe that Gail Sullivan believes that Joseph Sullivan was at heart a good guy, father, and husband. Even the interviewer is surprised that Gail just kinda glossed over that Joseph was the only person to break out Attica like it was some common thing. Gail Sullivan does not even seem to be in some warped denial about her husband being this maniacal hitman. You can tell she loves this dude FOR REAL. Something about how Kay is portrayed never really rings true with me like that. She seems like the antithesis of a Gail Sullivan in that she is very weak and dimwitted. Her "solution" only inevitably makes it worse because she has now created a clear chasm between her and her kids. Plus, her kids are firmly entrenched in whatever the hell Michael Corleone conjures up for them. Her strength is automatically voided. You married into a notorious crime family and thought everything would turn out rosy. If you know history, that never turns out to be the case. So instead of sympathy, you probably get apathy instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Have we got this far without saying Jar Jar? Or is that just so assumed by this point, you don't even have to say it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.T. Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Have we got this far without saying Jar Jar? Or is that just so assumed by this point, you don't even have to say it? Yeah I just assumed we all fucking hated Jar Jar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.H. Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 I honestly don't know who I hate more, Jar Jar or young Anakin Can we also throw MuttWilliams/Henry Jones III from Kingdom of The Crystal Skull on to the fire of characters we hate? James 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxB Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Name a Shia LeBeouf character people like. Can't be done. He should just accept it and play incompetent villains from now on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLowe Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Name a Shia LeBeouf character people like. Can't be done. He should just accept it and play incompetent villains from now on. He was tolerable in Disturbia, Holes, and Even Stevens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Here is a question: Are we supposed to like Mitchell as a character in Mitchell, because honestly he's pretty fuckin' repugnant. I'm convinced that Steve Bochco watched Mitchell and thought "I can take this guy and make him redeemable" and created Andy Sipowicz! James Its not like you want to root for Martin Balsam or John Saxon or Merlin Olsen. He's admittedly no Jim Rockford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.H. Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 I dunno, I might be persuaded to root for Martin Balsam James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's? Most of the characters we talk about are just annoying. He was flat out offensive. It's kind of the reason I object to the idea of that movie as a beloved classic. He's simply too big a flaw for it to overcome, even if Audrey Hepburn is all charming and coquettish and looks nice in her clothes. The most powerful scene of the otherwise flat The Bruce Lee Story is when his girlfriend drags him to see it and you can see Bruce quietly losing his shit over it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unholy Dragon Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 I don't quite hate Jar Jar. He at least gets an interesting character arc. Stinky Hutt on the other hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 I don't quite hate Jar Jar. He at least gets an interesting character arc. The shockingly plausible "Darth Jar Jar" theory could, if it ever happens, redeem the character a tiny bit in my eyes. *In a future movie, Luke kills everyone to get to THE BAD GUY responsible for all the hideousness and evil in the universe and ruining his life. Then THE BAD GUY pulls back his dark hood to reveal...* "IT WAS MEESA, MEESA ALL ALONG, LUKE. YOUSA ALL BOUGHT IT." Luke: "Son of a bitch!" But that ain't happening. So, instead, Jar Jar Binks is just awful. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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