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Elsalvajeloco

2016 Non-Event General MMA Talk Thread

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On 8/17/2016 at 11:02 AM, Elsalvajeloco said:

What's funny is when you really think about...there is no blueprint for pro wrestlers getting in on the ground level. The level of success we assign to pro wrestlers is what would also be ascribed to prospects who have that same ability. Dudes like Don Frye, Dan Severn, Lesnar, and Lashley had legit amateur wrestling pedigrees. If you told someone a guy like Lesnar was a NCAA D1 champ, was strong as an ox, and was skilled enough to dominate an ex-UFC HW champ, he would be on top ten prospect lists everywhere from day one. However, as a pro wrestler, people think he doesn't have a chance against someone like Randy Couture. Barnett was doing MMA since he was 19 so that automatically eliminates him. Ken Shamrock and these other American shoot wrestlers had experience already through cross training and competed when very few people in MMA knew what the fuck they were doing (or competed in worked shoots for the most part). Also, especially in the case of Shamrock, they were on every PED under the sun when that was acceptable.

So for Punk to come in with zero experience in a completely different era of MMA, you basically have to look at it from the perspective of normal people who jump in on the same level. It's more prevalent in boxing in Mexico where fighters come in with minimal amateur experience and get thrown to the wolves, facing future world champs in like their fifth or sixth pro bout. Also, it's very prevalent in female MMA where women get in because their boyfriend, significant other, or kid was training jiu-jitsu or something. There are instances in the UFC on the male side, but all three share the same connection. A vast majority of them have have barely above .500 records or double digit losses. In boxing, some turn it around (especially a lot of the fighters at or around 126lbs.) just because they were able to adapt and the sheer toughness and workrate gets them to that point. When they get paid more, they are able to hire better trainers and hire nutritionists and strength coaches. In MMA, with the talent level increasing in different international markets as well, they get to a certain point before they settle there. Every UFC champion and immediate contender has a background in some discipline even if they were never world class. The only exception is Bethe Correia, and she's clearly an outlier. To find someone else like that, you would have to go back to another era of MMA. In addition to the change in eras, because he isn't juiced up like the dudes in the past (or present based on what has went on in Bellator and pending Lesnar's current situation), Punk is competing at 170 pounds. At least back then, those guys fighting at heavyweight had the chance to fight other palookas to hide their shortcomings in athleticism and skill. Punk's giant disadvantage is that he is former pro wrestler with no background to speak of fighting in one of the most talent rich divisions against someone who might soon be a prospect. That is the least desirable position as a pro wrestler to be in unless you count like old Doctor Death Steve Williams fighting to pay for his cancer treatment. 

Maybe the closest approximation is Sakuraba, who competed at 205 when it started to really take off. However, Sakuraba was heading out of his prime and was on the downswing once he started taking those absurd beatings. Sakuraba though started as a shoot wrestler (w/ an amateur wrestling background) back when they were considered the toughest guys around. With Japanese MMA being in bad shape now and knowing what a real fight looks like with real skilled fighters, the type of wrestler has been made obsolete outside of a certain capacity in pro wrestling occupied by fewer and fewer people every new generation. Sakuraba was able to go in there with legit top fighters and either look incredibly proficient or even beat them. There is no way in hell a random pro wrestler is going to come in and do what Sakuraba did then, especially below heavyweight. If someone like the Miz had to fight Jimi Manuwa or Nikita Krylov, he is going to get his face blown off in a jiffy. He can train for an entire year at the best camp in the world and that's still going to happen. For Punk to try to do something like that, I am only giving him a pass because that's an incredibly ballsy thing to do considering all the conditions. 

This reminds me of a conversation I was having on another board.  How many wrestlers on the WWE roster would stand a chance against Conor McGregor in an actual shoot fight?  I think Lesnar is the only one I'd put money on, even though the guys who were really good amateur wrestlers like Ziggler, Swagger, Jordan and Gable would have a shot.  Every other person on the roster would be in for a pretty bad ass kicking.  Someone tried to say that Del Rio, who has an MMA background, could compete with McGregor, but I don't see it.  I've seen multiple Del Rio MMA bouts and other than his size he is worse at every aspect of MMA than Conor McGregor.  I am very interested in seeing how CM Punk does in his UFC debut, but I really don't think it is going to go well for him.  MMA at the UFC level is no joke, and he's going to be fighting guys who have spent years trying to make it to this level.  Those guys are battle tested, well-rounded, and fucking tough as nails.  CM Punk is a guy in his mid-30s who decided he was going to go from training jiu-jitsu in his free time to being a professional fighter at the highest level.  I think he's going to have a hard time.

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1 hour ago, supremebve said:

This reminds me of a conversation I was having on another board.  How many wrestlers on the WWE roster would stand a chance against Conor McGregor in an actual shoot fight?  I think Lesnar is the only one I'd put money on, even though the guys who were really good amateur wrestlers like Ziggler, Swagger, Jordan and Gable would have a shot.  Every other person on the roster would be in for a pretty bad ass kicking.  Someone tried to say that Del Rio, who has an MMA background, could compete with McGregor, but I don't see it.  I've seen multiple Del Rio MMA bouts and other than his size he is worse at every aspect of MMA than Conor McGregor.  I am very interested in seeing how CM Punk does in his UFC debut, but I really don't think it is going to go well for him.  MMA at the UFC level is no joke, and he's going to be fighting guys who have spent years trying to make it to this level.  Those guys are battle tested, well-rounded, and fucking tough as nails.  CM Punk is a guy in his mid-30s who decided he was going to go from training jiu-jitsu in his free time to being a professional fighter at the highest level.  I think he's going to have a hard time.

like, just an actual brawl out on the streets, or an official MMA match. because i feel the answer would swing wildly depending on your criteria.

you have to take into account size. Conor is not a huge man, he is moving up to have a fight at 170 pounds. Brock Lesnar is humongous and cuts to get down to 265 lbs. i would say there's plenty of WWE wrestlers around that 220-240 lb size that would put a beating on Conor. once again, if we're talking MMA, that tightens it up due to techniques and comfort level and all that stuff, but Conor is not some freak of nature that can just whoop anybody in the world's ass.
Your Del Rio comparison is interesting, because once again, when you've got size and strength, many times you can have less technique and still be able to persevere. Del Rio is somewhere around 240 lbs, has MMA training, and was in line to compete in (amateur) wrestling at the Olympic level. His striking leaves a LOT to be desired, but i absolutely don't think it would be a runaway for Conor. Actually i kinda want to see that fight now.....

i don't argue with your CM Punk logic. i am very much looking forward to seeing his first UFC fight and getting a true judge of his potential, but when you start training MMA at 35 years old, i don't have high hopes for your career. i just watched the first episode of the Evolution of Punk series, and he's got a long way to go, but that was filmed a year and a half ago. i look forward to watching the progress.

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Just now, twiztor said:

like, just an actual brawl out on the streets, or an official MMA match. because i feel the answer would swing wildly depending on your criteria.

you have to take into account size. Conor is not a huge man, he is moving up to have a fight at 170 pounds. Brock Lesnar is humongous and cuts to get down to 265 lbs. i would say there's plenty of WWE wrestlers around that 220-240 lb size that would put a beating on Conor. once again, if we're talking MMA, that tightens it up due to techniques and comfort level and all that stuff, but Conor is not some freak of nature that can just whoop anybody in the world's ass.
Your Del Rio comparison is interesting, because once again, when you've got size and strength, many times you can have less technique and still be able to persevere. Del Rio is somewhere around 240 lbs, has MMA training, and was in line to compete in (amateur) wrestling at the Olympic level. His striking leaves a LOT to be desired, but i absolutely don't think it would be a runaway for Conor. Actually i kinda want to see that fight now.....

i don't argue with your CM Punk logic. i am very much looking forward to seeing his first UFC fight and getting a true judge of his potential, but when you start training MMA at 35 years old, i don't have high hopes for your career. i just watched the first episode of the Evolution of Punk series, and he's got a long way to go, but that was filmed a year and a half ago. i look forward to watching the progress.

I'm talking about an official MMA match to answer your first question. Yeah, Big E could pick up a bar stool and beat McGregor to death, but that isn't what we're talking about.

Here is my argument for why McGregor beats Del Rio.  Alberto Del Rio was not a very good MMA fighter when he was actually focusing on being an MMA fighter.  He fought at 212 lbs., which is bigger than McGregor, but that isn't an overwhelming size difference.  McGregor is better at every aspect of MMA than Alberto Del Rio.  McGregor is a great striker, a really good defensive wrestler, and is a better grappler than what we've seen.  He got tapped pretty quickly by Diaz once the fight hit the ground, but Alberto Del Rio is no Nate Diaz.  Diaz actually had to chain a few techniques together to get that choke, and if McGregor was fighting someone else he probably would have escaped.  Del Rio is the very definition of somebody else.  McGregor has spent the last 8 years trying to be the best fighter on the planet.  He beat one of the top 5 MMA fighters in history in 13 seconds.  Del Rio, who was a good amateur wrestler, but wasn't exactly a dominant MMA wrestler when he was competing.  He fought the smaller Kazuhiro Nakamura(185 lbs.) and was taken down repeatedly and out grappled throughout.  McGregor would probably be able to deal wiht Del Rio's size, by simply grappling with larger fighters in training.  McGregor's speed and striking advantage would be much greater than Del Rio's size and questionable MMA wrestling skills.

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Why Conor thinks he can handle big guys.

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The likelihood of any pro wrestler (especially those contracted with WWE) walking up and trying to fight a trained MMA fighter knowing said person is trained is bordering on zero percent. In 2016, no one is that delusional in thinking that's going to go well. You don't want to be the dude who gets slept by a 150 pound man. That's not a rep you want.

Do people go around thinking they can beat up Gennady Golovkin simply because they're bigger than him? First off, at least 75% of these people have never been in an actual fight before. Second, think about it for a minute. If you're close enough to take him down to the ground, he is also close enough to fold your ass up with the quickness. You might as well save yourself from that concussion you're surely going to get.

Also, Brawl for All pretty much ended that who is the toughest guy in the back curiosity and rightly so. Dudes are out here throwing sub Toughman, seventh grade girl Hail Mary windmills and getting faceplanted by Bart Gunn. I'm over it.

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1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Also, Brawl for All pretty much ended that who is the toughest guy in the back curiosity and rightly so. Dudes are out here throwing sub Toughman, seventh grade girl Hail Mary windmills and getting faceplanted by Bart Gunn. I'm over it.

Brawl4All was such an insane contest that ended so unspectacularly. Everything about it was a massive failure, from the rules to the reactions to the results.
WWF's failure to capitalize with Bart Gunn boggles my mind to this day. Sure, maybe it wouldn't have worked, but he barely appeared on WWF TV again after that. Except to get embarrassed by Butterbean, of course

i loved Brawl4All.

but yes, you are right. those haymakers were atrocious.

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Jordan Burroughs lost in the quarterfinals to Russia's Aniuar Gedeuv. That was only his third loss as a senior in international competition.

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CqPF47DWYAAVRbS.jpg

Official poster for 204. The first press conference is today at 5 p.m. ET before the ceremonial weigh-ins for 202.

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1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Jordan Burroughs lost in the quarterfinals to Russia's Aniuar Gedeuv. That was only his third loss as a senior in international competition.

Gutted

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Why do we need to add them? They're already in El Salvaje's post.

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1 hour ago, AxB said:

Why do we need to add them? They're already in El Salvaje's post.

When I originally posted, the tweet only loaded halfway and stopped at like UFC 205. It loaded correctly when I went to go edit it.

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Conor or Rousey definitely headlining 207.  I can see Thompson vs Woodley headlining 206 as a filler ppv like 201.

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12 hours ago, Shawn411 said:

Conor or Rousey definitely headlining 207.  I can see Thompson vs Woodley headlining 206 as a filler ppv like 201.

filler ppv? you sound like an idiot.

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People have been actually saying 12/30 should be the "less important" show since it is on a Friday unlike 206. That's using the Lesnar vs. Overeem as the barometer for Friday PPVs.

But anyway, it always comes down to what is available. They're working on 204 and then the next 3-4 weeks will be focused on 205.

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Albert Tumenov's rebound fight is going to be Leon Edwards at UFC 204. That should be a good scrap.

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I take it that it's almost a certainty that Jon's suspension is getting lifted or reduced. I think that's bullshit, but I'm not going to lie, AJ vs Jones is the fight I've wanted to see. I wanted that fight more than Cormier vs AJ.

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BTW, think about this. Years ago we talked about Rumble being the one to finally dethrone GSP. Rumble was as athletic as GSP, HUGE for 170, hits like a truck, and thought was that his wrestling background, while not as celebrated as GSP's, would be enough to stifle that part of GSP's game. We, and others, looked at Rumble vs GSP like GSP coming up to take out Matt Hughes.

Weight issues and bad losses derailed AJ until now, where once again he's looked at as the guy to potentially dethrone the current top guy in MMA, Jon Jones. What an odd journey for one fighter. I hope he pulls it off.

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I think the money is still in that fight being for the title AFTER Cormier vs. Jones II. If they stripped Jon of the interim title, then it would make sense. For some reason, Wikipedia lists him as stripped under the LHW title history but his official entry still has him interim champion. Anyway, unify the belt again and then go from there.

I dunno if I ever looked at Rumble as the guy at welterweight. I remember I wanted him to beat the ever loving shit out of Koscheck when they fought. Once he couldn't make weight at 170 consistently, I automatically took him out of contention just because I don't think they would have ever gave him a shot. Outside of Koscheck, he really didn't face a large concentration of welterweight contenders. Zenko wasn't a contender. Brenneman definitely wasn't one. Kevin Burns wasn't one. I think they were kinda gunshy about putting him there with top welterweight consistently and probably having him show up way overweight. Plus, if you looked at his body, you probably knew he wasn't going to last long at welterweight anyway to make it to GSP. I remember when he debuted against Reiner. Reiner wasn't a small dude and 5'11"/6'0" was pretty tall for welterweight at that time. I remember thinking after he stiffened Reiner up badly in no time, "if this guy isn't fighting at middleweight in a year, then he must be using diuretics."

 

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If Donald Cerrone is still technically under contract with UFC as Brett Okamoto tweeted, is it even legal for Bellator MMA to make him a contract offer?

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