NXT TAKEOVER: London

[EVA]

I know it's early, but turning Enzo, Cass, and Carmella heel has just jumped out to a big lead for "worst idea I've heard all day."

But you did remind me...When they pointed out Bayley and Carmella's friendship on air for the first time on the main show, I was thinking they might go with Carmella coming down and throwing in the towel for the finish to Bayley/Nia.

[Lamp, broken circa 1988]

oh yeah that's another thing

 

the finn balor jack the ripper thing

 

I get that he's a dude who has "a demon" or whatever, but is dressing up like a man that murdered sex workers really that much of a babyface move?

 

"I'll show you, Joe. See, now I disembowel prostitutes, which means I will wrassle you super good and the people love me"

[supremebve]

I know it's early, but turning Enzo, Cass, and Carmella heel has just jumped out to a big lead for "worst idea I've heard all day."

But you did remind me...When they pointed out Bayley and Carmella's friendship on air for the first time on the main show, I was thinking they might go with Carmella coming down and throwing in the towel for the finish to Bayley/Nia.

Yeah, if anyone has watched Breaking Ground, turning Carmella heel would just be a bad idea.  If they want to do that down the road I'd have no problem with it, but she comes off as such a sweet, geniune, likeable person on that show I don't know why you would even try to turn her heel right now.  I don't know if Bayley is going to stick around long enough to let this play out, but if they did the friendship thing for 6 months to a year only to have Carmella do the heel turns of all heel turns at the end.  I just don't see how you can show her on Breaking Ground being the most likeable person and then try to turn her heel at the same time.  Once Bayley leaves, she makes the most sense as the top sympathetic women's babyface ace.  Asuka can win the title, but her character doesn't have the emotional range as Carmella's if handled correctly.  Carmella has to take her in ring work up another notch or two for her to reach her ceiling. 

[HumanChessgame]

They need to start planting the seeds for Gable/Jordan vs. Dawson/Wilder so it can main event the next Takeover.  They've had the women's title main event the show for an incredibly hot and much-anticipated match, no reason they can't do the same with the tag titles.  Considering how over the two teams are, especially Jordan and Gable, they could easily build up the feud to be blown off at that show.

[Godfrey]

I loved the show. Thought Emma, Asuka, and Joe were the highlights. I do think it was too early to have Nia Jax lose though. Not that Bayley should've either. The whole thing felt too rushed, I guess. Good match, but I think it would've been better on the next special with more build.

[Patrick B.]

Emma's stock has risen considerably in the past few months and Takeover definitely helped in that regard.

 

Dana's words sound really rehearsed.

 

Shouldn't Nia's theme be a bit more ominous instead of being whatever girl-power anthem she has now?

 

Also:  Why the smiling?  She's a heel.  Scowl and kill people.  Worked for Kong.

 

Nia has a couple of more impactful moves that could be finishers(Samoan Drop and that Rock Bottom/spinebuster thing she does).  To me, the legdrop doesn't look hurty enough to be a match-ender.  Top-rope Samoan Drop is ideal for a big-match move.

 

The soccer-style chants didn't bug me as much as they bugged other people, but they did seem out of place when Bayley was taking a beating.

[Phantom Lord]

Shouldn't Nia's theme be a bit more ominous instead of being whatever girl-power anthem she has now?

 

Also:  Why the smiling?  She's a heel.  Scowl and kill people.  Worked for Kong.

 

Nia has a couple of more impactful moves that could be finishers(Samoan Drop and that Rock Bottom/spinebuster thing she does).  To me, the legdrop doesn't look hurty enough to be a match-ender.  Top-rope Samoan Drop is ideal for a big-match move.

 

 

I keep saying this. They should be booking her like Kong/every other big woman ever. But I guess because she has a nice smile and she's related to The Rock and Roman Reigns they figure down the line they can use that in some fashion. Her ring gear says destroyer. Her theme music says party. It just doesn't mix.

 

I hate to say this but I think they made a mistake with Bayley winning at least in the fashion she did last night. I loved the hell out of her busting out the Dragon Sleeper. I tweeted to her that it should be called The Hug Lock. But for the beating she was taking they could have easily gone with the same kind of deal like Owens/Zayn where she just knocked her the hell out. They were well on that way after she did two huge spine busters to Bayley.

 

The story I guess is now Nia was too inexperienced in this match. Bayley vs. Asuka is where it shall be. I fear for Bayley in that one.

[supremebve]

 

Shouldn't Nia's theme be a bit more ominous instead of being whatever girl-power anthem she has now?

 

Also:  Why the smiling?  She's a heel.  Scowl and kill people.  Worked for Kong.

 

Nia Jax's biggest issue right now.  She doesn't know how to not be incredibly attractive.  She is a very good looking woman, who has a smile that lights up a room, but that isn't what you really want from your killer, monster heel.  Her character is supposed to be Godzilla terrorizing Tokyo, but that isn't what I feel while watching her.  OK guys, if you walk into a bar with all of the WWE women, and you had to pick which one to approach based purely on her body language, where does Nia Jax rank on the most approachable.  She looks like she wants you to like her, when her character shouldn't want you to like her. 

[Brysynner]

I know it's early, but turning Enzo, Cass, and Carmella heel has just jumped out to a big lead for "worst idea I've heard all day."

But you did remind me...When they pointed out Bayley and Carmella's friendship on air for the first time on the main show, I was thinking they might go with Carmella coming down and throwing in the towel for the finish to Bayley/Nia.

 

Oh it's a horrible idea but supposedly WWE wants their acts to work face and heel before being called up and there's nothing left for the three to do in NXT if they're gonna be brought up together. Bayley doesn't have any opponents if Asuka is going into a feud with Nia Jax next and I'd assume Carmella and Bayley would like to work a short program against each other before they get called up to WWE

[Linus]

The soccer-style chants didn't bug me as much as they bugged other people, but they did seem out of place when Bayley was taking a beating.

 

When a team goes behind at football (not soccer) the fans often sing louder to rouse them to victory.

[Cristobal]

OK guys, if you walk into a bar with all of the WWE women, and you had to pick which one to approach based purely on her body language, where does Nia Jax rank on the most approachable.

In the interest of this thread staying open, no one should answer this question. Especially not YOU. You know who I'm talking about.

[Firebreaker Chip]

I kind of see the point of people saying Nia should've passed out in the guillotine; If you're the person in the choke and you're going out it almost seems pointless to feebly tap out and look like you quit rather than pass out and wake up 20 seconds later* but look tougher, unless you're somehow scared Bayley will fight off ten refs to crank it for another minute straight and leave you brain dead.

 

if it had been a judgement call stoppage, Nia could've gone on a post-match attempted rampage and have to be restrained, go after the ref who called for the bell etc etc. They protected Corbin well when he passed out to Joe in Brooklyn

 

Agree that Nia's theme is abysmal, reminds me of Chyna's unbelievably cringe-inducing "don't treat me like a woman" one

 

* I guess in NXT though it has been demonstrated that if you get choked out you'll be unconscious for minutes and there is a risk that you will be subject to lots of lingering, humiliating camera shots of you drooling all over yourself ; Idk, the one time I got caught with a real bad baseball bat choke in jiu-jitsu training and passed out it was like the third or fourth most entertaining thing that happened to me that year

[supremebve]

I kind of see the point of people saying Nia should've passed out in the guillotine; If you're the person in the choke and you're going out it almost seems pointless to feebly tap out and look like you quit rather than pass out and wake up 20 seconds later* but look tougher, unless you're somehow scared Bayley will fight off ten refs to crank it for another minute straight and leave you brain dead.

 

if it had been a judgement call stoppage, Nia could've gone on a post-match attempted rampage and have to be restrained, go after the ref who called for the bell etc etc. They protected Corbin well when he passed out to Joe in Brooklyn

 

Agree that Nia's theme is abysmal, reminds me of Chyna's unbelievably cringe-inducing "don't treat me like a woman" one

 

* I guess in NXT though it has been demonstrated that if you get choked out you'll be unconscious for minutes and there is a risk that you will be subject to lots of lingering, humiliating camera shots of you drooling all over yourself ; Idk, the one time I got caught with a real bad baseball bat choke in jiu-jitsu training and passed out it was like the third or fourth most entertaining thing that happened to me that year

Yeah, wrestling will never figure out how chokes work.  You can't fight a choke for more than about 10 seconds, and that is if you had your lungs filled, and are in crazy cardiovascular shape.  After a grueling match, you might have 5-8 seconds before you go out.  Getting choked is like watching the end of a Looney Tunes cartoon when the screen darkens into a circle, except Porky Pig doesn't pop out.  When the lights start going out you have about a second to tap or pass out.  Her standing up multiple times while in a choke is just dumb, standing up with a person hanging on your neck uses more oxygen than you'd have in that situation.  She should have passed out, Bayley should have rolled off of her selling the desparation move, and Nia Jax should have looked at the ref and asked, "What happened?"  There is a way for them to do chokes without insulting our intelligence. 

[Ramsey]

 

I kind of see the point of people saying Nia should've passed out in the guillotine; If you're the person in the choke and you're going out it almost seems pointless to feebly tap out and look like you quit rather than pass out and wake up 20 seconds later* but look tougher, unless you're somehow scared Bayley will fight off ten refs to crank it for another minute straight and leave you brain dead.

 

if it had been a judgement call stoppage, Nia could've gone on a post-match attempted rampage and have to be restrained, go after the ref who called for the bell etc etc. They protected Corbin well when he passed out to Joe in Brooklyn

 

Agree that Nia's theme is abysmal, reminds me of Chyna's unbelievably cringe-inducing "don't treat me like a woman" one

 

* I guess in NXT though it has been demonstrated that if you get choked out you'll be unconscious for minutes and there is a risk that you will be subject to lots of lingering, humiliating camera shots of you drooling all over yourself ; Idk, the one time I got caught with a real bad baseball bat choke in jiu-jitsu training and passed out it was like the third or fourth most entertaining thing that happened to me that year

Yeah, wrestling will never figure out how chokes work.  You can't fight a choke for more than about 10 seconds, and that is if you had your lungs filled, and are in crazy cardiovascular shape.  After a grueling match, you might have 5-8 seconds before you go out.  Getting choked is like watching the end of a Looney Tunes cartoon when the screen darkens into a circle, except Porky Pig doesn't pop out.  When the lights start going out you have about a second to tap or pass out.  Her standing up multiple times while in a choke is just dumb, standing up with a person hanging on your neck uses more oxygen than you'd have in that situation.  She should have passed out, Bayley should have rolled off of her selling the desparation move, and Nia Jax should have looked at the ref and asked, "What happened?"  There is a way for them to do chokes without insulting our intelligence. 

 

Yeah, but this is pro wrestling. In pro-wrestling if you roll over a figure four leg lock it reverses the pressure. In pro wrestling, a sleeper hold can last for minutes and minutes. Submissions in pro wrestling are drama spots. I understand the sentiment but at the end of the day it is what it is.

[Trocar Slush Weasel]

 

The soccer-style chants didn't bug me as much as they bugged other people, but they did seem out of place when Bayley was taking a beating.

 

When a team goes behind at football (not soccer) the fans often sing louder to rouse them to victory.

 

 

Unless you're and Arsenal or Chelsea fan, then you just keep being quiet.  But to your point, I wish they had called a couple of audibles and had Bayley make short comebacks during those times.

[Overly Critical Man]

This is the same sport that had Bret Hart survive the crossface chickenwing for 15 minutes. Obviously pro wrestlers need to be presented as more superhuman than just regular ol' MMA fighters. I mean, the biggest, strongest, most badass pro wrestler ever(Brock) went to the UFC and dominated all those jiu jitsu jerkoffs until he had to have half his intestines removed.

[The Unholy Dragon]

I kind of see the point of people saying Nia should've passed out in the guillotine; If you're the person in the choke and you're going out it almost seems pointless to feebly tap out and look like you quit rather than pass out and wake up 20 seconds later* but look tougher, unless you're somehow scared Bayley will fight off ten refs to crank it for another minute straight and leave you brain dead.

if it had been a judgement call stoppage, Nia could've gone on a post-match attempted rampage and have to be restrained, go after the ref who called for the bell etc etc. They protected Corbin well when he passed out to Joe in Brooklyn

Agree that Nia's theme is abysmal, reminds me of Chyna's unbelievably cringe-inducing "don't treat me like a woman" one

* I guess in NXT though it has been demonstrated that if you get choked out you'll be unconscious for minutes and there is a risk that you will be subject to lots of lingering, humiliating camera shots of you drooling all over yourself ; Idk, the one time I got caught with a real bad baseball bat choke in jiu-jitsu training and passed out it was like the third or fourth most entertaining thing that happened to me that year

Yeah, wrestling will never figure out how chokes work. You can't fight a choke for more than about 10 seconds, and that is if you had your lungs filled, and are in crazy cardiovascular shape. After a grueling match, you might have 5-8 seconds before you go out. Getting choked is like watching the end of a Looney Tunes cartoon when the screen darkens into a circle, except Porky Pig doesn't pop out. When the lights start going out you have about a second to tap or pass out. Her standing up multiple times while in a choke is just dumb, standing up with a person hanging on your neck uses more oxygen than you'd have in that situation. She should have passed out, Bayley should have rolled off of her selling the desparation move, and Nia Jax should have looked at the ref and asked, "What happened?" There is a way for them to do chokes without insulting our intelligence.

Yeah, but this is pro wrestling. In pro-wrestling if you roll over a figure four leg lock it reverses the pressure. In pro wrestling, a sleeper hold can last for minutes and minutes. Submissions in pro wrestling are drama spots. I understand the sentiment but at the end of the day it is what it is.

I mean, is that kind of choke spot any less believable than literally anything to do with an Irish Whip?

[Brian Fowler]

I never ever want pro wrestling to treat chokes like real life.

[supremebve]

I don't think the problem with the choke spot is that it is unrealistic, but that it is trying to add drama to a move that would be more dramatic if they didn't dramatize it.  If Bayley is next to death, grabs a desparation choke, Nia Jax passes out and wakes up without any understanding of how she lost, I'd find that more dramatic than what happened.  Bayley grabbing the choke for what seemed like forever makes the choke look weaker than it would if she locked it on and put the monster heel out immediately.  Nia Jax looks credible, because she beat Bayley within an inch of her life, but Bayley, the champion, looks even more credible because no matter how beat down she is she was able to pull out the victory.  Moreoever that choke can be put over as a death move, which is something missing from wrestling these days.  Nia Jax tapping takes away her monster credibility, but her passing out makes her look like she got caught with a move she wasn't expecting.

[Jenalysis]

 

 

Shouldn't Nia's theme be a bit more ominous instead of being whatever girl-power anthem she has now?

 

Also:  Why the smiling?  She's a heel.  Scowl and kill people.  Worked for Kong.

 

Nia Jax's biggest issue right now.  She doesn't know how to not be incredibly attractive.  She is a very good looking woman, who has a smile that lights up a room, but that isn't what you really want from your killer, monster heel.  Her character is supposed to be Godzilla terrorizing Tokyo, but that isn't what I feel while watching her.  OK guys, if you walk into a bar with all of the WWE women, and you had to pick which one to approach based purely on her body language, where does Nia Jax rank on the most approachable.  She looks like she wants you to like her, when her character shouldn't want you to like her. 

 

 

That's a vibe I got as well, she just can't look mean.  She either needs a mask, war paint, or Asuka to hand her a collection of Dump Mastumoto and Bull Nakano matches.

[Cristobal]

If Bayley is next to death, grabs a desparation choke, Nia Jax passes out and wakes up without any understanding of how she lost, I'd find that more dramatic than what happened.

And meanwhile the rest of the crowd would be like "WTF just happened?"

Play to the cheap seats, friend.

[Matt D]

I'm not as high on the Asuka vs Emma match as everyone else. I think it was good, but that the portrayal of Asuka wasn't entirely consistent with how we've seen her up until now. Some of that was Emma being more of a threat, which is good, but I think it was the wrong threat. I would have liked to see more cheating out of Dana instead, more foot grabbing and distraction to set up the cut offs and transitions. It wasn't that Emma took too much of the match but that she took too much of the match clean. The crowd still got behind every one of Asuka's hope spots but I think it would have seemed more deserved if she wasn't getting cleanly knocked back down every time. It would have also built into the finish better. Dana was great as a cheerleader, but she would have been better and more appropriate for the match and for Asuka's build in general if she was Bobby Heenan.

 

I'm probably higher on Jax vs Bayley than most people though. 

[SirSmUgly]

I see where you're coming from, Matt D. To me, the match you describe wouldn't be as consistent with the way they have portrayed Emma on TV the past few weeks. Her jobber matches have shown her becoming a more vicious killer in the ring on her own merits; Dana being the focal point of the transitions would have taken away from the way that they built Emma up since the last Takeover. I think that it's fine for Asuka to show some vulnerability to another woman who has been coming out almost every week and pushing herself to become as deadly as Asuka already is.

 

Through the weeklies, the narrative was two-fold: First, that Emma was not going to be caught unaware as Dana was about Asuka's ability to destroy someone and that she would counter-act that by beating Asuka at her own game. Second, that Asuka developed something to get a flash KO if she was jumped and distracted again (as she successfully was for the first time a few weeks back). The second time they tried to distract her to allow Peyton Royce to get the jump, Asuka countered with the flash KO off the head kick...which came into play again as every Dana Brooke attempt to distract Asuka was stuffed until the final attempt ended in another head kick that ended the match.

 

The match was properly built to me because it fit into those dual stories of 1) Emma worked hard to get better and more vicious and 2) Asuka worked hard to make sure that she could counter Dana at ringside in some way after realizing that she couldn't win every two-on-one situation they put her into right up to the finish, which made perfect sense in the context of the narrative that they told on the weeklies.

 

Huh, I didn't even rank this match in my top ten WWE/NXT matches for the year, but I think I just might have talked myself into doing so. 

 

If you don't mind, Matt, can you put into more detail why you were so high on Jax/Bayley? I am actually pretty high on it myself, and I'm guessing that I will agree with you in part about it. 

[Cristobal]

I don't disagree with you Matt, but I would say Emma possibly needed the rub more. Asuka's already established as a killer, and while the match as a whole didn't necessarily bolster that, her escaping several false fuck finishes in the ending sequence did. Meanwhile, Emma needed a bit of a push to sell her as a real threat to Bayley (which may not happen immediately, but is a money program,) and her looking far better against Asuka than others have helps that along.

On Jax vs Bayley, I don't really see the problem, there. Yes, the match itself wasn't up to the recent women's title matches on Takeover events, but Nia's still pretty green. Her as champ will happen, but she can only do so much right now, and that's not enough to carry the division the way the champ should.

[Matt D]

I agree that Emma was more vicious. I think in the grand scheme of things, keeping Asuka strong was more important. In this regard she was strong in that she was able to overcome both Emma's meanness and the wonkiness of the finish (including almost literally being attacked by 30 years of match finish tropes). I don't think it's necessarily enough. Just for the sake of variety, especially in an environment with people like Asuka and Jax, and double especially because they were going to utilize it so heavily in the finish, I think they could have had Emma lean in on the meanness, have that not work (which would not make Emma look worse necessarily, but would keep Asuka all the stronger), then have Dana and Emma take advantage and generally keep it for much of the match by cheating (which would not make Asuka look weaker but would make Emma and Dana look all the more dangerous), and then go into the finish. 

 

As it was now, Asuka ended up looking weaker for being dominated by a mostly clean (if rough) working Emma for much of the match and Emma (and Dana) didn't even really get any rub for that because they were clowned so heavily in the finish, which was disjointed from the rest of the match. 

 

I'll do Jax vs Bayley later. Work pressures now.