Raw 11-23-15 is Dream Sequences and Jamborees

[Craig H]

They *will not* take Triple H and Stephanie off TV. USA Network pays them money not to do that.

 

And it isn't necessary, anyway. Their presence is not the issue - the way that they're written is the problem. They could easily use them in compelling angles. They just aren't doing it.

 

Pretty much this. For as much as we complain about this being year 4, or more, of the Authority angle, and how stale it is, it isn't like they can't make that angle more compelling. Sheamus ain't it though. Their quasi-burial of Rollins wasn't it either. I can't think of a World Champion that held the title as long as Rollins that was emasculated and minimized nearly every step of the way.

 

The steps to improve the quality of the show are pretty simple:

 

- Vince needs to step aside and not meddle.

- Vince stepping aside leaves Kevin Dunn to just producing the show from the truck.

- Writers from NXT need to be graduated up to the main roster and be given the time and freedom to set things in motion.

 

And that's it. This will also NEVER HAPPEN.

 

The last point brings to mind something I don't understand, which is why aren't writers and producers graduated up to the main roster like wrestlers are?

 

I'm just at a loss for how much this company is stuck in the mud. Normally I just shrug and move on, but Sheamus winning the title being a last minute move because they didn't want Reigns to get booed when he won his first title is maddening. First of all, while the crowd was indifferent towards Reigns during the match with Ambrose, he got cheered like crazy when he won, so they already avoided the issue of Reigns getting booed. If they then really wanted to make sure he would get cheered, then he should have easily dispatched Sheamus, who the crowd thinks is beyond dumb, and it would have reinforced how awesome Reigns is. Instead, Reigns gets his legs cut out from underneath him for the second time this year, the first being at WM. Just fucking commit to pushing the guy and do it because all of this pushing him to the moon, only to have second thoughts at the last minute, is going to wreck him.

 

Shit like the scenario above likely doesn't happen with a fresh writing staff, free from Vince's tinkering. And MAYBE that causes something else to happen, like Reigns turns heel on Ambrose or Ambrose turns heel on Reigns, but that's a whole hell of a lot better than minimizing Reigns, again, making him look like a chump at the hands of fucking Sheamus, who hasn't been cool or relevant in years, and now he looks like an idiot.

[Skeeball Wizard]

The problem with the powers that be is the same as any company that has had the same people in charge for far too long: they are set in their ways, and will stay the course no matter what. And just like every other business with that model, they will continue to fall. So "business" outside of creative and ratings is good; the ratings took a while to catch up to the bland and uninspired creative, you think stock prices will keep up when the TV show is drawing sub 2 ratings?

They had a perfect opportunity to try something, anything fresh or unique, and did the most boring thing possible.

[JohnnyJ]

I find that the problem is this constant search for a hand-picked top star. When if booked correctly you could have a dozen "top stars," each having a legitimate shot at the title.

 

There is no reason why the entire WWE has to revolve around Roman Reign's push. And I like Roman. His work has drastically improved and I completely get what they see in him.

 

But that doesn't mean that the whole roster (outside of Cena, Brock and the part-timers) have to trade clean finishes and moves  until they get pinned by Roman.

 

It takes all of the fun out of it. 

 

When I watch old Nitros, there's  7-10 guys who are always presented as main eventers, always protected and you could see walking out with the championship on the right night. 

 

In WWE that list is limited to Cena, Reigns and Brock. That's why the only intriguing championship matchups involve two of them in a match.

 

I look at someone like Ryback. He's gigantic. His stuff looks halfway decent. He should rarely be dropping falls and should be popping up a few times a year to cause havoc in the main event scene. Instead, he's selling and trading finishes with the Miz. 

 

I mean.. you could really make the exact same argument about most midcarders who are all subjected to midcard purgatory. 

[SolidGoldBomb]

What were the ratings?  Were they bad enough to make everyone think that the sky is falling?

[Craig H]

They were bad. They were also posted in the general wrestling thread.

[Black Angel]

So at what point does USA tell Vince to fuck off with that bullshit and fix it?

[Craig H]

And rating I guess is a misnomer. It's viewership.

[Charlie M.]

I don't know when they became so obsessed with the chase for the title. WWE was pretty much always about the big babyface star conquering heels. Is that Triple H's influence?

 

Twice this year Vince has been all set to strap a rocket to Roman Reigns and gotten cold feet at the last minute. Is that just him? Or are there people in there lobbying against Roman?

 

I've said it before but I'd rather they just went through with the huge Reigns push and see what happens. If it was a big flop, Vince would likely fall out of love with him in a hurry. Instead they just keep delaying it and we're stuck in this holding pattern.

[Craig H]

So at what point does USA tell Vince to fuck off with that bullshit?

 

I believe Raw currently receives more viewers than any other show on USA, so they might be content for now, but viewership has dropped close to a million over the course of a year.

 

Will WWE see that shitty, boring programming, and alienating your audience AND your own performers over the course of a year leads to a drop in that many viewers? Probably not.

[Burgundy LaRue]

If there is one advantage to Sheamus now being top heel, it's that no one is going to cheer him.  To that end, I can see why you don't turn Ambrose.  Most fans would cheer him even more as he mollywops his competition. 

 

In a perfect scenario, your heels are to be feared and cautiously respected, but ultimately hated.  They can do that with Sheamus.  He has the look and attitude of a snarling, brawling, take no prisoners badass.   More importantly, he doesn't care if he's hated.  He feeds on the hate.  Owens is the same way, but he's a darling for the internet fanbase.  There's too much love for him. He wouldn't work in this particular scenario.  Sheamus can.  And if nothing else, his henchmen are a lot more menacing that J&J Security with Corporate Kane in tow.

 

If they want to put heat on Sheamus and the European Ultras, have them beat the snot out of Reigns a few times.  I had no problem with Reigns getting the best of them on Raw because he was swinging a chair to get the edge, but that's as far as he should get.  Let them rip off his vest as some sort of prize while screaming "Who's the hound of justice now?"  Heck, do that just as he's about to fight Sheamus for the title at TLC.  There's no contest because they whupped up Reigns and he had to be carted off.  That protects Reigns from another WHC loss and can take him off TV for a couple of weeks to sell the beatdown and set up some new angles pre-RR.

[Craig H]

I don't know when they became so obsessed with the chase for the title. WWE was pretty much always about the big babyface star conquering heels. Is that Triple H's influence?

 

Twice this year Vince has been all set to strap a rocket to Roman Reigns and gotten cold feet at the last minute. Is that just him? Or are there people in there lobbying against Roman?

 

I've said it before but I'd rather they just went through with the huge Reigns push and see what happens. If it was a big flop, Vince would likely fall out of love with him in a hurry. Instead they just keep delaying it and we're stuck in this holding pattern.

 

What do you mean? Their storylines have consistently been about the chase for the title. Steve Austin chased the title for over a year until he won it at WM 14. Shawn Michaels chased Bret Hart for the title to accomplish his boyhood dream. 

[Craig H]

If there is one advantage to Sheamus now being top heel, it's that no one is going to cheer him.  To that end, I can see why you don't turn Ambrose.  Most fans would cheer him even more as he mollywops his competition. 

 

In a perfect scenario, your heels are to be feared and cautiously respected, but ultimately hated.  They can do that with Sheamus.  He has the look and attitude of a snarling, brawling, take no prisoners badass.   More importantly, he doesn't care if he's hated.  He feeds on the hate.  Owens is the same way, but he's a darling for the internet fanbase.  There's too much love for him. He wouldn't work in this particular scenario.  Sheamus can.  And if nothing else, his henchmen are a lot more menacing that J&J Security with Corporate Kane in tow.

 

If they want to put heat on Sheamus and the European Ultras, have them beat the snot out of Reigns a few times.  I had no problem with Reigns getting the best of them on Raw because he was swinging a chair to get the edge, but that's as far as he should get.  Let them rip off his vest as some sort of prize while screaming "Who's the hound of justice now?"  Heck, do that just as he's about to fight Sheamus for the title at TLC.  There's no contest because they whupped up Reigns and he had to be carted off.  That protects Reigns from another WHC loss and can take him off TV for a couple of weeks to sell the beatdown and set up some new angles pre-RR.

 

That would make sense if top heels weren't treated like jokes. Orton's last heel run with the belt where he was a gigantic whiner, Rollins constantly looking weak, Miz being a doucebag, and now Sheamus. Even CM Punk acted like a chickenshit during his heel run with the title. Unless you're HHH or Brock Lesnar, you can expect to look like a dork if you're a top heel. Sheamus may be the king of the dorks, which is saying something, because that would make him worse than the Miz.

[SolidGoldBomb]

Ratings for WWE RAW disastrous, lowest in almost 20 years By Dave Meltzer | @davemeltzerWON | Nov 24, 2015 2:04 pm

 

There is no way to spin the Monday, 11/23 WWE Raw ratings other than that they were a disaster.

The show did 2.95 million viewers, more than 200,000 viewers lower than what had previously been the non-holiday low dating back to 1997 when Raw was losing badly to WCW Monday Nitro.

Part of the reason was the NFL's Monday night game featuring the New England Patriots vs. Buffalo Bills that did 14.26 million viewers, which is about two million more than football has been doing in recent weeks but nowhere near a record.

It is the first time Raw averaged less than three million viewers since 1997.

To make matters worse, this was the day after the Survivor Series event where the WWE heavyweight title changed hands, which usually would lead to at least a strong first hour. In case you needed to be reminded, Sheamus now holds the gold after cashing in his MITB briefcase against five minute champion Roman Reigns.

The three hours were:

• 8 p.m. 3.19 million viewers
• 9 p.m. 2.99 million viewers
• 10 p.m. 2.71 million viewers

 

[Overly Critical Man]

So football gained TWO MILLION viewers. I'm pretty sure an intriguing game coupled with Sheamus pretty much tells the entire story.

[Charlie M.]

 

I don't know when they became so obsessed with the chase for the title. WWE was pretty much always about the big babyface star conquering heels. Is that Triple H's influence?

 

Twice this year Vince has been all set to strap a rocket to Roman Reigns and gotten cold feet at the last minute. Is that just him? Or are there people in there lobbying against Roman?

 

I've said it before but I'd rather they just went through with the huge Reigns push and see what happens. If it was a big flop, Vince would likely fall out of love with him in a hurry. Instead they just keep delaying it and we're stuck in this holding pattern.

 

What do you mean? Their storylines have consistently been about the chase for the title. Steve Austin chased the title for over a year until he won it at WM 14. Shawn Michaels chased Bret Hart for the title to accomplish his boyhood dream. 

 

 

Austin didn't really chase the title for a year, though. Once they decided he was the guy, it was a quick build to Mania and he went over. Once he got it, he was generally always the champ or fighting for it.

 

I don't see working your way to the top to be the same thing as the blatant chase they do now where the guy keeps failing.

 

They didn't really have a lot of long term heel champions. The belt has basically been dominated by heels for like 5 years. There's way too many dreary shows where the guy you like gets screwed and the people in charge tell you that you're stupid. If the show is supposed to be aimed at younger people, why not try to have fun shows?

[Skeeball Wizard]

What were the ratings? Were they bad enough to make everyone think that the sky is falling?

Worst ratings since 97, when they were getting trounced by Nitro. As far a being the highest rated on USA, that may be true, but their ad rates are most likely lower than most of the other programming.

[Craig H]

And if you're not one of those guys, then you're someone like Bray Wyatt, who has ZERO wins to legitimize any of his threats. He just looks like a clown.

 

I'm not sure if anyone saw it, but it was from a month ago and it was a video of CM Punk at a Q&A. Someone asked him when was the last time he watched wrestling and his response was years ago. He then walked it back a bit and said that Kofi was in his ear telling him to check out his, Big E's and Woods' New Day stuff. That's been his favorite thing to watch and he went on about how you eventually get to a point where you don't give a shit anymore and you just go out and do your thing, which the crowd in turn loves if you're a face or gets you heat if you're a heel, and it was obvious that none of the guys in the New Day gave a shit anymore. Lo and behold, they're the most entertaining part of Raw, they act like heels, they get heel heat, and they've managed to avoid having too many people in the crowd start loving them.

 

A few people said it before, but I now think there was a huge missed opportunity to have Kofi win the title at Survivor Series. I'm not Kofi's biggest fan, I think he's really dull actually, but you would have put the title on someone in a group that had been running over people. Oh well.

[Craig H]

 

 

I don't know when they became so obsessed with the chase for the title. WWE was pretty much always about the big babyface star conquering heels. Is that Triple H's influence?

 

Twice this year Vince has been all set to strap a rocket to Roman Reigns and gotten cold feet at the last minute. Is that just him? Or are there people in there lobbying against Roman?

 

I've said it before but I'd rather they just went through with the huge Reigns push and see what happens. If it was a big flop, Vince would likely fall out of love with him in a hurry. Instead they just keep delaying it and we're stuck in this holding pattern.

 

What do you mean? Their storylines have consistently been about the chase for the title. Steve Austin chased the title for over a year until he won it at WM 14. Shawn Michaels chased Bret Hart for the title to accomplish his boyhood dream. 

 

 

Austin didn't really chase the title for a year, though. Once they decided he was the guy, it was a quick build to Mania and he went over. Once he got it, he was generally always the champ or fighting for it.

 

I don't see working your way to the top to be the same thing as the blatant chase they do now where the guy keeps failing.

 

They didn't really have a lot of long term heel champions. The belt has basically been dominated by heels for like 5 years. There's way too many dreary shows where the guy you like gets screwed and the people in charge tell you that you're stupid. If the show is supposed to be aimed at younger people, why not try to have fun shows?

 

 

Wait, what? That's not correct at all. He feuded with Bret Hart in '96 because each saw the other as a stepping stone to the title and Austin wasn't going to be a stepping stone. Austin lost a #1 contenders match at Survivor Series, got screwed by Bret during the Royal Rumble, again tried to win the title in the Fatal 4 Way match, injured his knee, lost to Bret at WM 13, managed to work himself into the title picture again, lost to the Undertaker in a title match because of Bret Hart, injured his neck against Owen Hart, came back and still was on track to win a World Championship by winning the IC title first, won the Royal Rumble in '98, and finally won the title from Shawn at WM 14.

 

How is that NOT a year long chase for the title?

 

He then held onto the title for a long while and was in that scene, but when he had to have surgery on his neck and returned, it was another months long chase for the title, from about the summer of 2000 to winning the Royal Rumble and then winning the title again at WM 17.

 

The chase IS working your way to the top where your focus is on winning the World title. What you're referring to is strapping a rocket on someone and having that take them to the title. Even in that sense, after King of the Ring, it was pretty clear they were strapping a rocket on Austin.

 

I'm also confused by your last paragraph. They didn't have a lot of long term heel champions, and yet, the title has been dominated by heels? I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I mean, they've had a bunch of long term heel champions. HHH, Kurt Angle, Austin (even if it was a failure), Jericho, Orton, Brock Lesnar, CM Punk, Seth Rollins, etc. I agree that is dreary, but it appeared that the plan was to have Daniel Bryan have a long run with the title, but he got injured. So you're basically left with Cena and CM Punk having the longest babyface runs with the title. That's pretty boring.

[Overly Critical Man]

One point...you're misremembering. Austin won the Royal Rumble by screwing Bret after Bret eliminated him and no refs saw it. That's why Final Four happened in the first place.

[Godfrey]

If they wanted to avoid boos when Reigns won the title, they should've just had Sheamus cash in mid-match like Rollins did, only this time Roman is prepared and beats him handily. It has continuity and keeps Ambrose, who Sheamus would take out before losing, as a top guy as well. Sorry to arm chair book, but I find it baffling they went the direction they did.

[Matt D]

NWAclassics is posting a midget match today. Just saying.

[JohnnyJ]

The chase only works if it is someone WWE would not typically want on top. Bryan v. the Authority made sense. Punk v. the brass made sense. Austin v. McMahon made sense.

 

The audience is not that dumb. Cena v. the Authority is bad. Roman v. the Authority is just insulting. All anyone has heard about for the past two years is corporate wants to make Roman the new face of the company. That's the primary reason for the giant backlash. 

 

Yet somehow in some writers mind it makes sense that the way to get Roman over huge is to put him in a main event angle where corporate is trying to keep him from being the new face of the company. 

 

Under what twisted logic would this turn around the backlash?

 

 

If they wanted to avoid boos when Reigns won the title, they should've just had Sheamus cash in mid-match like Rollins did, only this time Roman is prepared and beats him handily. It has continuity and keeps Ambrose, who Sheamus would take out before losing, as a top guy as well. Sorry to arm chair book, but I find it baffling they went the direction they did.

 

Yeah, but then Roman doesn't get to beat Ambrose clean. You're not making sense.

[CSC]

I wanna see Bubba and Luke Harper get 15 minutes on PPV to beat the crap out of each other after seeing that tag match.

[Burgundy LaRue]

You can make Reigns vs The Authority work, but not with Reigns as a traditional underdog.  It would come down that HHH is jealous of him and having Reigns tell him no set things into motion where HHH takes out his frustration in the most heinous ways.   That HHH looks at this guy, with his long hair and confidence and he sees himself from 15 years ago and wants to recreate that time, so he projects his feelings upon Reigns.  But Roman keeps saying no.

 

As the mockumentary stated: if HHH can't win the championship himself, he'll mold someone in his image to win it.  He saw Rollins as a stand-in son and that sort of worked, but Reigns can be a HHH proxy. But the proxy refuses.  And so HHH goes on the warpath.

[Jiji]

That's not very interesting. Why should the audience care about Triple H's fantasies? Why should we back Roman in that regard? I honestly can't think of any emotionally engaging story Roman can be part of right now. He's shit on the mic and the promotion's golden boy.