2016 MLB Hall of Fame Thread

[RIPPA]

Man - poor Lou Whitaker.

 

The one year he was on the ballot was 2001 and 8 guys ended up making the HOF from his ballot (with a possible 9th depending on Jack Morris and the Veteran's Committee)

 

I am sure other one and doners have a high number like that but still

[EdA]

I was looking through the guys with the most hits and confused by the limited push at the time for some guys like Al Oliver, Vada Pinson and other similar guys who were borderline in theory but had no support at all? Anyone more familiar with those types of guys not getting in while guys with technically shittier careers did? Weird voter intangible necessities?

 

Power numbers, basically.  Oliver was seen more as a compiler* and the last few years of his career were not pretty to boot - especially when he became a slap-hitting 1B late in his career.  Pinson was overlooked due to a short-ish career and, again, lack of power.  Pinson probably deserves another look.  But...god...there are plenty of better versions of Pinson who should be considered first.

 

* Why being a "compiler" is bad for a hitter but OK for some pitchers (e.g., Sutton, Gaylord Perry) is another question all-together.

[glfpunk]

I know I'm a minority but I hope guys like Bonds and Clemons never get in.  That might seem weird coupled with my opinion that Rose absolutely should be in.  It's for achievements.  Bonds and Clemons greatest achievements are completely fake and the result of cheating.  Fuck them both. 

[Nice Guy Eddie]

 

So, is Jim Edmonds the best player ever to be a one and done on the ballet? Ken Griffey Jr. put up 77.7 WAR in his career, Edmonds put up 64.5. One is the highest percentage of votes ever, the other can't stay on the ballet. 

 

I would take Willie Randolph, Andres Galarraga and Ken Singleton over Edmonds (in regards to one and doners)

 

I also would have thought that whole cadre of Jays from the early 90s would have gotten more consideration but Joe Carter, Jimmy Key and Dave Stieb all only lasted a year.

 

And yes Whitaker was one and done (and using BR's version of WAR - Whitaker was 74.9 while Edmonds was 60.3 - but using WAR is stupid but that is another discussion)

 

This all being said - I don't know exactly how to "fix" this issue. 1st year guys can't be exempt because the ballot already is bulky to begin with. 

 

Unless.... they could someone figure out a way to do a sorta 1st year guy play-in ballot and say only the Top 5 make it to the real ballot. (Then they could be exempt). I mean the writers would just fuck that up too.

 

David Cone was also one and done. 

[supremebve]

I know I'm a minority but I hope guys like Bonds and Clemons never get in.  That might seem weird coupled with my opinion that Rose absolutely should be in.  It's for achievements.  Bonds and Clemons greatest achievements are completely fake and the result of cheating.  Fuck them both. 

Wait, aren't you the dude who thinks people should be able to do steroids in MMA?  A sport where doing steroids could legitimately lead to someone's death.  Bonds and Clemons were the best players of their generation before they did steroids.  If either of them would have retired in 1999, which is before we believe they started juicing, they would have been hall of famers with no questions asked.  Bonds was the best position player any of any of our lifetimes.  Clemens very well may be the best pitcher of our lifetimes.  They should be in the hall of fame.

[Craig H]

LOL steroids isn't leading to anyone's death in MMA. It's not like taking steroids or PEDs gives you Hulk Hands to punch and kick people to death.

[Dolfan in NYC]

Think less Barry Bonds and more Eddie Guerrero. 

[supremebve]

LOL steroids isn't leading to anyone's death in MMA. It's not like taking steroids or PEDs gives you Hulk Hands to punch and kick people to death.

You don't believe that taking a drug that allows you to train in a way that will make you stronger than you would be naturally be could lead to someone's death in a sport where you are allowed to literally beat someone into the ground?  You don't need hulk hands to punch and kick people to death, you only need hands and feet.  MMA and boxing are extremely dangerous sports, because getting into a fight is a pretty dangerous thing.  Being unnaturally strong increases the risks significantly. 

[Craig H]

There's a discussion to be had, but this probably isn't the place, so I'll drop it here.

 

I will say that personally, I go back and forth on the issue. What's done is done and their accomplishments are still their accomplishments. I started to become really apathetic to HoF voting after seeing what Santo went through and knowing that as soon as he died, those fuckers would induct him, which is exactly what happened. So once Maddux got in, I really stopped giving much of a shit because nothing would change. Bob Costas' approach is still the best, in my opinion. Induct those guys, but make mention of the era they played it. That era and the blind eye turned towards PEDs deserves more of the blame than the actual players, but you can't just omit that entire period from baseball. I also tend to think that with Roger, it gave him a couple extra years on his career that didn't exactly help his case for the HoF, and with Bonds, it added homers onto what would still be an impressive amount of homers without PEDs. And PEDs likely lead to the decline in health with each guy.

 

But then I flip-flop back into thinking, "fuck cheaters, they shouldn't get in." I'll admit though, a lot of that comes from Bonds and Roger being assholes.

 

EDIT: And the exact reason I didn't want to contribute any more to the MMA/steroids/death thing was just posted by supreme. I know where you're coming from Dolfan, but I also knew exactly where supreme was going with that.

[supremebve]

The thing that bothers me the most about the whole steroids in baseball discussion is that we don't know who actually did steroids.  Do we know for a fact that Piazza or Griffey didn't do steroids?  Do we know for a fact that Bonds or Clemens did?  Wasn't Piazza someone that people suspected did PEDs(there are plenty of articles saying that he's admitted to doing steroids multiple times off the record)?  Barry Bonds went to the Supreme fucking Court and they couldn't prove he did anything wrong, but we get to decide that he did.  Barry Bonds is better at everything baseball than Mike Piazza, and for some reason Piazza is a hall of famer and Bonds is not. 

[Tabe]

Look, Rickey and Nolan are already in. Why are we worrying about Clemens and Bonds?

[glfpunk]

The thing that bothers me the most about the whole steroids in baseball discussion is that we don't know who actually did steroids.  Do we know for a fact that Piazza or Griffey didn't do steroids?  Do we know for a fact that Bonds or Clemens did?  Wasn't Piazza someone that people suspected did PEDs(there are plenty of articles saying that he's admitted to doing steroids multiple times off the record)?  Barry Bonds went to the Supreme fucking Court and they couldn't prove he did anything wrong, but we get to decide that he did.  Barry Bonds is better at everything baseball than Mike Piazza, and for some reason Piazza is a hall of famer and Bonds is not. 

 

Yeah we know that Bonds and Clemons did.  Unless you're one of those guys.   

 

Also yes I'm the guy not opposed to steroids in MMA.  MMA has weight classes.  There's only so much muscle you can pack onto your existing frame within a weight class and it's an individual one vs. one sport.  The baseball hall of fame is basically a stat museum comparing the best ever.  I'm not for calling a guy the homerun champion when he "cheated" to achieve those numbers.  Until you open a wing of the museum called the steroid wing, I'm not for considering that steroid group as equals to the rest.  And yes I'm aware that Bonds was great before he started on the juice and grew his head three sizes larger and became a completely different player.  He should have stayed that way.  Instead of cheating and then lying about it.  Fuck em. 

[supremebve]

 

The thing that bothers me the most about the whole steroids in baseball discussion is that we don't know who actually did steroids.  Do we know for a fact that Piazza or Griffey didn't do steroids?  Do we know for a fact that Bonds or Clemens did?  Wasn't Piazza someone that people suspected did PEDs(there are plenty of articles saying that he's admitted to doing steroids multiple times off the record)?  Barry Bonds went to the Supreme fucking Court and they couldn't prove he did anything wrong, but we get to decide that he did.  Barry Bonds is better at everything baseball than Mike Piazza, and for some reason Piazza is a hall of famer and Bonds is not. 

 

Yeah we know that Bonds and Clemons did.  Unless you're one of those guys.   

 

Also yes I'm the guy not opposed to steroids in MMA.  MMA has weight classes.  There's only so much muscle you can pack onto your existing frame within a weight class and it's an individual one vs. one sport.  The baseball hall of fame is basically a stat museum comparing the best ever.  I'm not for calling a guy the homerun champion when he "cheated" to achieve those numbers.  Until you open a wing of the museum called the steroid wing, I'm not for considering that steroid group as equals to the rest.  And yes I'm aware that Bonds was great before he started on the juice and grew his head three sizes larger and became a completely different player.  He should have stayed that way.  Instead of cheating and then lying about it.  Fuck em. 

 

I see where you're coming from, but we look at the world in completely different ways.  I don't care if someone hits a bunch of homers, because of steroids.  I do care if people are on steroids punching each other in the head. 

[glfpunk]

If that's your concern then you should be in favor of banning Jon Jones from MMA then? Because he's that much more gifted than anyone else that it's a legit danger to them in the cage.  I just feel like the existence of weight classes cancels out the "power" aspect.  The main benefit of PEDs in MMA is getting in a full healthy camp and recovery time.  Sure they will help you achieve greater strength and speed but you're still operating within a set of parameters.  I see where you're coming from though and on that level I don't have a problem with the existence of cheater Bonds/Clemons in the game of baseball at all.  I'm just talking about their inclusion in a stat comparison museum.  If they legalized PEDs in baseball tomorrow I'd have no problem with it.  I still wouldn't view the stat comparison as legitimate though. 

[supremebve]

If that's your concern then you should be in favor of banning Jon Jones from MMA then? Because he's that much more gifted than anyone else that it's a legit danger to them in the cage.  I just feel like the existence of weight classes cancels out the "power" aspect.  The main benefit of PEDs in MMA is getting in a full healthy camp and recovery time.  Sure they will help you achieve greater strength and speed but you're still operating within a set of parameters.  I see where you're coming from though and on that level I don't have a problem with the existence of cheater Bonds/Clemons in the game of baseball at all.  I'm just talking about their inclusion in a stat comparison museum.  If they legalized PEDs in baseball tomorrow I'd have no problem with it.  I still wouldn't view the stat comparison as legitimate though. 

Weight has far less to do with strength than what people think.  A 155 pound man can be stronger than a 200 pound man if the 155 pound man can train in a way that the 200 pound man cannot.  When I played high school football we'd always name a secret superman, and every year we would have a tailback or a safety who could outlift all the big lineman.  Those guys were in the same weight rooms all season and there would always be one of the smaller guys who emerged as an animal in the weightroom.  If you put one of those kids on steroids and let him train at the level that steroids let you train he'd get significantly stronger than what he already was.  Then you let him punch someone his size in the face a bunch of times it wouldn't be fair, or safe, for the other guy. 

[odessasteps]

Look, Rickey and Nolan are already in. Why are we worrying about Clemens and Bonds?

This. And i love rickey.

[supremebve]

 

Look, Rickey and Nolan are already in. Why are we worrying about Clemens and Bonds?

This. And i love rickey.

 

Rickey is my favorite baseball player ever, but he wasn't the best. 

[Dolfan in NYC]

 

 

Look, Rickey and Nolan are already in. Why are we worrying about Clemens and Bonds?

This. And i love rickey.

 

Rickey is my favorite baseball player ever, but he wasn't the best. 

 

Not if you ask him. 

[supremebve]

 

 

 

Look, Rickey and Nolan are already in. Why are we worrying about Clemens and Bonds?

This. And i love rickey.

 

Rickey is my favorite baseball player ever, but he wasn't the best. 

 

Not if you ask him. 

 

That is 75% of why I love him.

[glfpunk]

 

If that's your concern then you should be in favor of banning Jon Jones from MMA then? Because he's that much more gifted than anyone else that it's a legit danger to them in the cage.  I just feel like the existence of weight classes cancels out the "power" aspect.  The main benefit of PEDs in MMA is getting in a full healthy camp and recovery time.  Sure they will help you achieve greater strength and speed but you're still operating within a set of parameters.  I see where you're coming from though and on that level I don't have a problem with the existence of cheater Bonds/Clemons in the game of baseball at all.  I'm just talking about their inclusion in a stat comparison museum.  If they legalized PEDs in baseball tomorrow I'd have no problem with it.  I still wouldn't view the stat comparison as legitimate though. 

Weight has far less to do with strength than what people think.  A 155 pound man can be stronger than a 200 pound man if the 155 pound man can train in a way that the 200 pound man cannot.  When I played high school football we'd always name a secret superman, and every year we would have a tailback or a safety who could outlift all the big lineman.  Those guys were in the same weight rooms all season and there would always be one of the smaller guys who emerged as an animal in the weightroom.  If you put one of those kids on steroids and let him train at the level that steroids let you train he'd get significantly stronger than what he already was.  Then you let him punch someone his size in the face a bunch of times it wouldn't be fair, or safe, for the other guy. 

 

 

I disagree.  We are talking about high level athletes in combat sports fighting within weight classes.  We're not talking about random guys at your local gym.  It doesn't work like that. 

[Niners Fan in CT]

I can't begin to understand how anyone would think steroids allowed Bonds to do what he did at the plate. Steroids isn't magic. Bonds was a once in a lifetime hitter. He would go days without seeing a pitch to hit. Then he'd get a pitch and hit it out of the park. Who else could have done that?  He never even really fell off either. He was forced out of baseball. He was still a top player even in his final year with the Giants. 

 

He obviously added a lot of muscle mass when he was well into his 30s but was he juicing in the early 90s when he weighed 185lbs?  I highly doubt it. And he was still the best player even then. I love Junior but he was never Barry Bonds even then.  Bonds was a 3-time MVP by '93. He could have retired as the only 500/500 player even before the steroid era.  He was on his way to hitting 50 home runs in '94 before the strike.  He won what, 8 or 9 gold gloves also. 

 

There's Bonds and there's Babe Ruth. Maybe Ted Williams. That's the list. If arguably the greatest player of all time isn't in the hall of fame then the hall of fame is a joke and cannot be taken seriously. 

 

fwiw He also beat the charges in Federal Court which almost never happens.

[Cristobal]

Or if you want the tl;dr version, how do steroids get you a .609 OBP?

[The Man Known as Dan]

I don't think where the dispute lies isn't that Bonds wouldn't have been a HOF without the steroids. The problem, in a lot of ways, is he put himself into the Best of All Time running BECAUSE of steroids. I don't think he ever would have gotten quite to that level without them. Extra resentment due to him holding records that have basically became permanently tainted. 

 

If Bonds just naturally fell off at the standard time table of the average player, and it came out late in his career he used steroids, I'd think he'd be better received then he was as "Dick Head Steroid User who broke all the records that now we have to ignore until someone breaks them"

[Ryan]

40 year olds don't look like that or hit like that on a normal basis, regardless of talent or genetics. He prolonged his peak by at least five-seven years by being on stuff that kept him strong. He still had the physical tools, but the extra stuff made it that much more potent, extra distance on balls due to power and all that. It adds up.

[RIPPA]

Griffey in as a Mariner (with a forward facing cap)

 

Piazza in as a Met