UFC 193: Rousey vs. Holm (11/14/2015) - Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Etihad Stadium)

[The Natural]

 

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

Obviously, I don't spend a lot of time in this forum. And I'm a very casual mma fan.

But Christ, I did not see this happening. Like Fedor, I guess. Absolutely unbeatable right up until the moment they got beat up and taken out.

Difference is anybody who's been watching Ronda fight knows that she's far from polished and has big holes in her stand-up. She's always been pretty clumsy in her footwork and striking, though from watching her public workouts/fights the past year, they're both improving. But she's only been effective when fighting inside. Holm's camp knew that, Holm has incredible footwork, and great technical ability. Between Holm executing the right strategy and Ronda playing to her opponent's plan/strengths and her own weaknesses, it was a trouncing.

 

Fedor and the other GOAT candidates were all-around great fighters, had far superior opponents, and generally played to their strengths. Ronda was able to dominate because of her aggression, world class Judo and armbar game, and eventually even her punching power. Her opponents either were dogshit relatively speaking or didn't have the right tools/plan to expose her. I didn't give Holm much of a chance because she's looked absolutely terrified in her two UFC fights and fought very tentatively. I thought Ronda's aggression would lead to another quick submission but Holm fought the perfect fight and shut me up. Women's MMA is still in its infancy and that's why you can see a fighter with obvious holes dominate for a lengthy period of time. I don't think it's fair to compare Ronda getting completely outclassed to Fedor's eventual decline. That's not to say Fedor or Anderson Silva didn't fight some chumps when they were on top but women's MMA is very thin in talent for the time being.

 

Tangent: other than the gameplan we've talked about to death and her confidence, I was most impressed with Holm's ability to stop takedowns/disengage the clinch/muscle her way out of the armbar.

 

 

I think a big part of Holm's win is that Rousey's ground mechanics were also not very good. The "throw your legs around your opponent feebly and pray for the best possible scenario" is stuff you only see from jiu-jitsu players who started fighting in 2003 and haven't learn anything outside of that. I don't know if her legs were dead, but her muscle memory was entirely gone.

 

We're talking about how Edmond was a big part of this loss, but I don't believe Mike Dolce should totally get off scot-free. Dolce gets you down in weight, but you're probably not going to be in true fight shape. IIRC, Dolce's plan was having Rousey be around 135 or at 135 the night before the weigh-in to avoid the weight cut the day before the fight. I don't think that was a good idea especially when Rousey came into the camp pretty big (compare her appearance in the media tour to others in the past).

 

Ronda doesn't look good at weigh-ins typically, but she looked pretty strange at the UFC 193 weigh-in. Then, she shows up with not a ton of muscle definition. She was a big, but not functionally big. Holm looked pretty damn impeccable, especially compared to Ronda.

 

People talk about making weight is what professionals do. I think a large problem with that notion is we don't typically see people miss weight in UFC title bouts. So are we saying that every person who fought in a UFC title bout in recent history is in shape? Making weight and being in shape for a fight to go 3-5 rounds is a totally different thing. This is something I discussed with Dillashaw-Barao II. Renan Barao made weight, but was he in shape to fight someone the caliber of TJ Dillashaw? He looked good in training by all accounts. However, when you still have a massive amount of weight to get off, there is a really good chance you're going to negate all the positives that came out of your camp. When your condition demands that you win a title fight within ninety seconds to two and half minutes, you're doomed completely. Unless you have this weird scenario that happened with Velasquez-JDS I where both fighters came in with major knee injuries, it is not going to work out in your favor.

 

A big part of being professional is not only making weight, but realizing when you've hit that wall. We can't absolve Mike Dolce just because he is one of the go-to guys and he got her to 135. Forget Cyborg and all this body image shaming stuff. She has to got worry about her own weight issues now. She's not going to be able to just peel weight off like she did 3 or so years ago.

[glfpunk]

You hit the nail on the head. She physically did not look the same but I couldn't put my finger on it.

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

i dont think theyre claiming it broke the stadium attendance record. that would be obvious bullshit even if there was 56,000 there. the record is held by a Jehovahs Witness event that had 70,059, or if you dont want to count that, its a Robbie Williams concert from 2006 at 64,619. WWE had the record before Williams, iirc.

 

the AFL record is 54,444. obviously theres no seats on the ground for that so if the full seats on the ground at the UFC make up for the empty seats in the stands (namely the top section which was almost empty at the two ends) then 56,000 is plausible.

 

They claimed it broke attendance records several times during the press conference. That's one thing that yeah, didn't happen as you say.

 

Maybe 56,000 tickets sold, but no way there were 56k there.

[smitlick]

Not attendance records but definitely a gate record. They were selling $4,000+ seats...

Also got to meet Mark Hunt which was cool. Shorter then I thought he would be.

And another thing that I thought might interest some is that the UFC already have promotional material up for Sage Northcutt in the Fan Village thing outside of the arena. Had quotes from him about dreaming of the UFC etc.

Also the crowd had a lot of Irish fans in it for whatever that's worth.

[Elsalvajeloco]

Marc Raimondi ‏@marc_raimondi 31m31 minutes ago

UFC champ Joanna Jedrzejczyk has broken right hand, needs surgery

http://www.mmafighting.com/2015/11/15/9740184/ufc-champ-joanna-jedrzejczyk-has-broken-right-hand-needs-surgery

 

Hopefully, this doesn't delay the Gadelha fight for very long.

[Jiji]

This interview with Winkeljohn is interesting. He claims that Holly "didn't show all of [her] cards early in the UFC for a reason."

[PuroresuFan]

I guess she feels that Rousey deserved to have Holms pu pu punch her face pu pu punch her face...

 

I'll show myself out.

[TheVileOne]

Marc Raimondi ‏@marc_raimondi 31m31 minutes ago

UFC champ Joanna Jedrzejczyk has broken right hand, needs surgery

http://www.mmafighting.com/2015/11/15/9740184/ufc-champ-joanna-jedrzejczyk-has-broken-right-hand-needs-surgery

 

Hopefully, this doesn't delay the Gadelha fight for very long.

 

Joanna said she didn't really want to fight again until UFC 200 anyway.

[Brian Fowler]

Obviously, I don't spend a lot of time in this forum. And I'm a very casual mma fan.

But Christ, I did not see this happening. Like Fedor, I guess. Absolutely unbeatable right up until the moment they got beat up and taken out.

Difference is anybody who's been watching Ronda fight knows that she's far from polished and has big holes in her stand-up. She's always been pretty clumsy in her footwork and striking, though from watching her public workouts/fights the past year, they're both improving. But she's only been effective when fighting inside. Holm's camp knew that, Holm has incredible footwork, and great technical ability. Between Holm executing the right strategy and Ronda playing to her opponent's plan/strengths and her own weaknesses, it was a trouncing.

 

Fedor and the other GOAT candidates were all-around great fighters, had far superior opponents, and generally played to their strengths. Ronda was able to dominate because of her aggression, world class Judo and armbar game, and eventually even her punching power. Her opponents either were dogshit relatively speaking or didn't have the right tools/plan to expose her. I didn't give Holm much of a chance because she's looked absolutely terrified in her two UFC fights and fought very tentatively. I thought Ronda's aggression would lead to another quick submission but Holm fought the perfect fight and shut me up. Women's MMA is still in its infancy and that's why you can see a fighter with obvious holes dominate for a lengthy period of time. I don't think it's fair to compare Ronda getting completely outclassed to Fedor's eventual decline. That's not to say Fedor or Anderson Silva didn't fight some chumps when they were on top but women's MMA is very thin in talent for the time being.

 

Tangent: other than the gameplan we've talked about to death and her confidence, I was most impressed with Holm's ability to stop takedowns/disengage the clinch/muscle her way out of the armbar.

I get everything you are saying here, but it doesn't change the perception I had/have. I'm at least equally as shocked as I was when Fedor went down the first time, partially because of one the very things you mention: the overall lack of depth of talent currently in women's mma. Even moreso in that this wasn't a "Ronda made one mistake/Holly landed a lucky blow" type of knockout, but a "massive underdog absolutely dominates for a round and a half before finishing the champ decisively."

Again, my fandom is casual, certainly casual enough that I didn't notice the holes in Rousey's game awhile watching her last few fights that combined to run for something like 125 seconds total.

All the credit to Holm. She actually did shock the world.

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

Marc Raimondi ‏@marc_raimondi 31m31 minutes ago

UFC champ Joanna Jedrzejczyk has broken right hand, needs surgery

http://www.mmafighting.com/2015/11/15/9740184/ufc-champ-joanna-jedrzejczyk-has-broken-right-hand-needs-surgery

 

Hopefully, this doesn't delay the Gadelha fight for very long.

 

Joanna said she didn't really want to fight again until UFC 200 anyway.

 

 

Yeah, I am going to say that's not all too realistic. Unless they go four title fights deep on that show, she is more likely to be fighting on the Sunday card than the day before. She isn't getting one of the top spots on that show unless JJ/Gadelha becomes this hot commodity that needs to be saved for IFW. 

 

If she isn't back by May, I would be very surprised. I know everyone wants to be on UFC 200 (especially if stuff begins to fall into place), but everyone isn't going to be on UFC 200. 

[Kevin Wilson]

 

 

Marc Raimondi ‏@marc_raimondi 31m31 minutes ago

UFC champ Joanna Jedrzejczyk has broken right hand, needs surgery

http://www.mmafighting.com/2015/11/15/9740184/ufc-champ-joanna-jedrzejczyk-has-broken-right-hand-needs-surgery

 

Hopefully, this doesn't delay the Gadelha fight for very long.

 

Joanna said she didn't really want to fight again until UFC 200 anyway.

 

 

Yeah, I am going to say that's not all too realistic. Unless they go four title fights deep on that show, she is more likely to be fighting on the Sunday card than the day before. She isn't getting one of the top spots on that show unless JJ/Gadelha becomes this hot commodity that needs to be saved for IFW. 

 

If she isn't back by May, I would be very surprised. I know everyone wants to be on UFC 200 (especially if stuff begins to fall into place), but everyone isn't going to be on UFC 200. 

 

Would they put a title fight as the main event of the prelim? I know that isn't normal but if it was a big night and it could get them more eyeballs that may then order the PPV.

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

 

 

Marc Raimondi ‏@marc_raimondi 31m31 minutes ago

UFC champ Joanna Jedrzejczyk has broken right hand, needs surgery

http://www.mmafighting.com/2015/11/15/9740184/ufc-champ-joanna-jedrzejczyk-has-broken-right-hand-needs-surgery

 

Hopefully, this doesn't delay the Gadelha fight for very long.

 

Joanna said she didn't really want to fight again until UFC 200 anyway.

 

 

Yeah, I am going to say that's not all too realistic. Unless they go four title fights deep on that show, she is more likely to be fighting on the Sunday card than the day before. She isn't getting one of the top spots on that show unless JJ/Gadelha becomes this hot commodity that needs to be saved for IFW. 

 

If she isn't back by May, I would be very surprised. I know everyone wants to be on UFC 200 (especially if stuff begins to fall into place), but everyone isn't going to be on UFC 200. 

 

Would they put a title fight as the main event of the prelim? I know that isn't normal but if it was a big night and it could get them more eyeballs that may then order the PPV.

 

 

If this was any place that wasn't Las Vegas (or Los Angeles), I would be down with that. However, I see it with boxing where no one shows up to the prelims even with a title fight. So far it hasn't made a difference. If you're going to do the best title fight possible at 115, you don't want to do in front of a handful of people where you can still hear everything the corner is saying. That would be disastrous. 

 

Keep in mind, you are dealing with certain time constraints you don't have with a PPV. The FS1 prelims usually don't start until maybe 10-15 minutes after the broadcast has begun. If the first three fights go the distance, then you got big trouble. Showtime, when they've done title fights on prelims, usually leave a 25-30 minute cushion before the main broadcast at the top of the hour begins. Many times, fights end early so you get a lot of deadtime. However with the UFC, they've barely got under the 10pm ET wire with four 3 rounders on several occasions. With the way their roster is, I doubt they cut it down to 3 fights just to do that. In addition, they don't do swing fights in the manner they did eight or nine years ago. They have all their fights in the order they're suppose to happen. They don't pull that game that Bellator or lower levels promotions do where fighters are constantly warming up and having production people pull them every which way. I doubt they ever start doing that.

 

Plus, the UFC braintrust's philosophy on their champions is something that really hasn't changed recently. Their philosophy is that their champions will headline or co-main event their shows. They don't want to devalue their titles, undisputed or interim, by having them appear in the middle of the show. It goes back when people suggested they put DJ in a flyweight title fight to headline the prelims. It's not gonna happen and won't change for the forseeable future. If you're a champion, you are going to be fighting in one of the top two fights on the show no matter if you're popular or not.

[Josh Mann]

In a weird way, this was the best thing that could have happened, assuming Rousey wants a rematch. The Tyson-Douglas rematch would have been a mint had it happened but never did for political reasons and happenstance.

You're telling me Holm-Rousey 2 won't draw?

[Elsalvajeloco]

I think the worst case scenario would have been a boring Holm decision win. The fact the she got a really big pop after that makes me believe that they went from having zero fights set up to already one giant fight. 

 

I think the problem with Rousey-Cyborg, as I've several times, is that Cris has never fought on a UFC broadcast ever. Yeah, casual fans might remember her from Strikeforce but that was going on at least two years and a half years ago now. It would have been a big fight regardless, but if you want to break the UFC 100 number, you got to bring some real heat. Now you got the Holm rematch and the possibility of the Cyborg fight in your back pocket. Now, you got a chance to introduce Cyborg back into the television fold without just throwing her in cold with Rousey. If Cyborg starts sleeping girls, then you got something past just one PPV. They want UFC 200 to be really big, but they also want viable options for next year.

[glfpunk]

This interview with Winkeljohn is interesting. He claims that Holly "didn't show all of [her] cards early in the UFC for a reason."

Yeah that's bullshit. It's so stupid when people do this. To suggest that Holly held back in her other UFC fights for reasons of some kind of surprise for a future opponent is so dumb. No she didn't. She did the best she could in every fight. She didn't do anything brand new in the Rousey fight. She's an evolving fighter who executed properly and who's opponent played directly into her gameplan.

[Elsalvajeloco]

I think we might as well start a rumor that Steven Seagal taught her that high kick. It would be certainly as plausible as Holm saving her best.

[The Unholy Dragon]

So I get it was shocking and Holm deserves her performance bonus and all, but giving Holm-Rousey Fight of the Night after thatkiller Strawweight Title match is six tons of bullshit. If Johanna didn't bring some eyes from Rousey to the Strawweights with that, there's some bullshit.

[The Natural]

[smitlick]

So I get it was shocking and Holm deserves her performance bonus and all, but giving Holm-Rousey Fight of the Night after thatkiller Strawweight Title match is six tons of bullshit. If Johanna didn't bring some eyes from Rousey to the Strawweights with that, there's some bullshit.

The crowd were completely bored by the Joanna fight...

[peterien]

So no word of 'congratulations' or 'job well done' from Rousey to Holm?

[Hail Sabin]

In her book she never gave credit after Judo loses.

[J.T.]

So no word of 'congratulations' or 'job well done' from Rousey to Holm?

 

Did you expect it?  Rousey never even touched gloves with Holly.  Her ego is bruised beyond belief right now.

 

I was happy for Holly for putting the whoop on dat ass.   The feints and evasive footwork did my heart good.  I'm still not convinced that wasn't Holly deliberately clowning Rousey with that little ducking sidestep, but head games seemed to be a big part of Holly's game plan.  Bashing Ronda's face and her pride paid huge dividends.

 

Dunno if Ronda was angry, scared, or rattled, but she totally left her judo outside of the cage on Saturday night.  Standing and trading with someone who had a distinct reach, speed, and skill advantage on the feet was not smart.  Pride definitely got in the way.

 

I'm very interested to see how Rousey bounces back from this loss.   That will really be the true test of how good of a champion she really is.

[AxB]

If she's got any sense, she'll fire Edmund, move to Poland and train striking with Joanna's team. But I think there's a bit too much Diaz brother mentality in her for that. She'd rather blame losses on her own mistakes than admit someone was just better on the night... although she did do the complete opposite of fight a smart fight.

 

If you're being over aggressive and being outclassed by a better striker who is lethal angling out off the back foot, the one thing you should never do is keep lunging at them. If she'd started backing off and making Holm come to her more, well, it's a lot easier to clinch up with someone moving in than someone moving out. If only she'd had an intelligent fight analyst in her corner to tell her what adjustments to make. Or even to make adjustments, rather than tell her she was doing well and stick with it.

 

She did seem wierdly out of shape in the fight as well. Much less defined musculature than usual (or at the weigh in), and visibly blowing up early. Did all those sub-minute fights convince her that she didn't need cardio? Or was she injured and unable to train, or something? I know a lot of it must have been taking punishment, but Holm seemed to land less to the body than usual, and her body shots hadn't been as effective in previous fights.

 

If they do Holm vs Tate next, and then the winner gets Rousey, that's probably better business. Even if Tate beats Holm (styles make fights), Rousey vs Holm 2 is still on the table, either as a contender's battle (babyface being forced to earn a title shot she should have been freely given = money) or as Rousey's first defence when she beats Tate again (styles still make fights).

[supremebve]

I think the story of this match was what happens when one fighter has a gameplan and the other doesn't.  The story of every other Rousey fight was her opponent trying to match her aggression and getting steamrolled.  Holm's coaches basically did the exact opposite.  They had her back all the way up, and stay as far away as possible, and used Rousey's aggression against her.  Rousey had no idea what to do.  Her footwork was terrible, she had no idea how to cut the cage off when Holm was moving away.  Her head movement was non existent and Holm was able to locate her chin every time she moved into range.  When Rousey went back to her corner, her coaches told her she was doing great and Hom had "nothing, but that left hand."  That left hand was battering her like a piece of fried chicken, and they didn't think it was a big deal.  There was some discussion in the 30 for 30 thread about whether or not Tyson could have ever beat Holyfield.  Tyson's fighting style was similar to Rousey in the sense that both needed to find a way to fight in the proverbial phone booth.  Tyson, especially young Tyson, had incredible head movement and footwork that allowed him to get inside without taking too much punishment.  Rousey's head movement and footwork was so terrible, that I have no idea how she improves enough in time to win a rematch.  She won't ever beat Holm if she just walks straight in with a stationary chin like she did the other night.  Holm doesn't have to be Floyd Mayweather(I don't think we'll be talking about that any more) defensively, she just has to move away and let Rousey walk right into her left hand.  That was a masterful fight from Holm and her trainers, and a huge debacle for Ronda Rousey and her trainers.