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OCTOBER 2015 WRESTLING DISCUSSION


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For anyone who hasn't seen it, the Table of 3 with Cesaro, Owens, and Ambrose is fantastic. Cool anecdotes from CZW, ROH, and Puerto Rico, and Ambrose has the worst table manners (obviously).

 

Cesaro also alludes to not being the type that's going to quit just because things might not be going his way (as discussed here earlier).

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In addition to all the examples already listed, the Hardys also had a fun match against the Young Bucks last year, and a really good match on Smackdown in 2000 against Benoit and Malenko. And I remember liking some of their matches against T and A.

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Hardys had a good series on Smackdown with the Outlaws in late 99.

I think people forget how much Vince was up HHH's ass before he dated Stephanie. Seeing how unstable Chyna turned out to be, I can't blame him for getting out.

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In addition to all the examples already listed, the Hardys also had a fun match against the Young Bucks last year

Y'all had me going for a second there.

I really dislike the Bucks, but this was a good match. It helps that they were all working more of a Southern-style tag match, instead of the constant flippy shit style the Bucks normally work.

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- Final question was on Gabe Sapolsky and the relationship there between Dragon Gate USA & Evolve, specifically Johnny Gargano's recent appearance, and whether they are a feeder system for NXT. HHH says he sees all of it as a feeder system, he really like what they do, and wants to support their shows. He said if he didn't have room at the P.C. for talent and wanted them to get additional work, he'd send them to Gabe. He said the indie undercurrents are healthy for the business, and would do anything he could for them.

HHH, shit on by the internet for years, actively trying to help the indies...weird.

I'm not saying you are or aren't doing this, but why do people say stuff like this as if it's some kind of evidence that people's past opinions were wrong?

I mean yeah, obvious caveat that we don't really know what goes on behind the scenes let alone in Vince's head, but how does NXT being awesome change the fact that Triple H's 20 minute promos were boring as shit, and that far too many of his matches were paint-by-numbers repetitive?

How does NXT's stellar booking invalidate opinions about how HHH was booked a decade ago? Is it not highly probable that his priorities as a booker are different than when he was wrestling?

 

Why in the world are you coming to that based of what I said? I just find it strange that a guy who clearly fits Vince's mold, and is a fan of old school guys, is actively going after guys the internet likes, many of whom do not fit the mold of what a typical WWE wrestler looks like. 10 or so years ago, it was almost like pulling teeth to see guys who we're clearly star material elsewhere getting chances in the WWE. I got turned on to Punk circa 2001 thanks to the internet and I knew back then, that guy was money. Yet the numerous muscle head freaks, many of whom had zero interest in wrestling beyond a paycheck, and just flat out sucked at pro wrestling, were given shot after shot while guys like Punk, Daniels, Low-Ki, Samoa Joe, Aj Styles, etc etc etc, we're seemingly just passed over despite actually proving they could draw else where. Hell look at Daniel Bryan and Batista and that was only a short time ago.

 

HHH ultimately might be the downfall of the company, wrestling organizations with wrestlers booking have a nasty history of going out of business, but him having a seemingly very different view on talent compared to Vince while he himself is a Vince type guy, is strange. I'll give Hunter shit for a lot of things, but he clearly understands times have changed and he's not trying to fight it. He seemingly looked at wrestling history and learned something so many failed to grasp. Good for him and the WWE. Now lets just see if he can keep enough space between him and the show without ruining it.

 

I don't think it invalidates anyone's opinions about Triple H the wrestler. I think a lot of fans just have conflicting feelings about him, and still aren't sure how to feel about him. He has a really weird legacy now.

Weird doesn't even begin to describe it because the most important chapters are still waiting to happen. He's going to make or break the company over the next decade.

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HE should have dropped the fall to Booker, I don't think that would have cheapened his falls to benoit, Batista or Cena, but I do buy that they wanted to keep the belt on HHH until Goldberg took it off of him. The WWE was right to be hesitant to push RVD as he proved when they did decide to do it, I don't think he was ever cut out to be a tip top guy in the WWE anyway, super popular but his promos and ring work were pretty eh when he got to WWE, what made him special in ECW just wasn't going to work outside of that atmosphere.

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Have we ever gotten the full story about what happened in the build-up of Booker T. to him jobbing at Mania 19 when the entire storyline was built around him winning? Like was Hunter the one who said he wasn't gonna job? Was Vince weary of putting the belt on Booker? Was the entire plan to job Booker but the build-up was to build Booker as a credible threat to Hunter? I feel like this match has a ton of backstage questions about it but no one's actually covered it.

 

My personal opinion is the build up was supposed to just build up Booker to get beat by Hunter but Hunter and Flair took it a little too far in getting Booker over and then Hunter screwed up at Mania by waiting too long after the Pedigree to cover Booker.

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I may be wrong but wasn't the story that Booker was going to go over but then they signed Goldberg so they wanted HHH to stay the champ for a Goldberg feud?  The dates match up as Goldberg debuted the following night, then feuded with HHH and won the belt in September.

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Technico, that's what I heard as well.  If we were to find out for sure it's not going to be anytime soon, if ever.  Booker's on commentary so he wouldn't want to talk shit about it.  And if there was anything for HHH or whoever to admit it's definitely not going to happen now.

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Have we ever gotten the full story about what happened in the build-up of Booker T. to him jobbing at Mania 19 when the entire storyline was built around him winning? Like was Hunter the one who said he wasn't gonna job? Was Vince weary of putting the belt on Booker? Was the entire plan to job Booker but the build-up was to build Booker as a credible threat to Hunter? I feel like this match has a ton of backstage questions about it but no one's actually covered it.

 

My personal opinion is the build up was supposed to just build up Booker to get beat by Hunter but Hunter and Flair took it a little too far in getting Booker over and then Hunter screwed up at Mania by waiting too long after the Pedigree to cover Booker.

 

The bigger problem is that the racial undertones of the Booker/HHH feud disguised the fact that, quite frankly, in February/March 2003 Booker T just wasn't ready for the World Title at that time period. 

 

Booker T had his run as WCW World Champion, but he had spent all of 2002-03 teaming with Goldust in a goofy tag team and indeed, since the InVasion ended he had been treated as a goofball comedy guy...and suddenly (especially with how badly the Scott Steiner feud bombed- and reports said the original plan was for Steiner/HHH to go to Wrestlemania 19) Booker T was expected to be a world-beating babyface who could take on Triple H within six weeks. That just wasn't going to happen as much.

 

The nature of the feud may have made it so Booker T *HAD* to win it- but at the same time, it needs to be mentioned Booker T beating Triple H at Wrestlemania 19 would have been the same as Daniel Bryan winning the WWE Championship at Wrestlemania...29. Yes, Daniel Bryan had some buzz and some momentum as a star going into it, and fans would have been happy if he won it there- but there's a world of difference between "Bryan wins the WWE Title in an emotional finish at Mania 30" and "Kane and Daniel Bryan celebrate as Bryan holds up the WWE Title, as Dr. Shelby comes out and says 'You've finally graduated' to him." 

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I don't remember it being that quick a turnaround. Goldust/Booker was a comedy tag team that actually turned into a legit team that people loved because of their chemistry, and they had that angle where Booker was clearly positioned as above Goldust and Goldust ended the team because he thought that he was holding Booker back. Then they fed Big Show to Booker to get him ready for the HHH feud, IIRC, but at that time, I feel like the crowd did buy him making it to that level. I could be mistaken. 

 

I don't know if it's analogous to Bryan winning at WM 29 because I don't think he had even Booker's initial push at that point, and he wasn't positioned as clearly better than Kane in the way that Booker was positioned as better than Goldust. 

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I can almost understand why you would want to look at the Booker/Hunter Wrestlemania 19 feud differently now.  In the long run, Booker eventually won a world title(in spite of this feud I might add), and people have a more favorable perspective on those Hunter's years now. 

 

I'm still calling BS on the "Hunter winning being the right decision" angle creeping up in here though.  Even back then, I was surprise by how Booker lost the match at WM 19.  Booker was verbally dragged through the mud throughout the buildup by Flair and Hunter.  Booker being ready for the title doesn't matter to me.  That storyline dictated a comeuppance at its conclusion, which would have only been accomplished with a title win due to the nature of the feud.  Hell, he didn't even win that lame 3 on 3 match at the next PPV versus Hunter's team.

 

 

No racial overtones here.  It was blatant.

Edited by _MJ_
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Triple H going over for the sake of the Goldberg moment would have been the right decision if they hadn't introduced all that racist shut into the Booker feud. But since they did, yeah, he needed to go down.

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