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OCTOBER 2015 WRESTLING DISCUSSION


RIPPA

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Personally I think you guys are way over-thinking the crowd thing. It has nothing to do with people cheering because they 'appreciate what they do' or fans are smarter. People cheer the wrestler that entertains them. When I was a young kid my favorite wrestlers were Great Muta, Sting, and Vader in WCW. Two were heels. I knew of course it wasn't real but there was no Internet to tell me who Muta was or how accomplished Vader was in Japan, I liked them because I found their matches entertaining. That's it. And its not a new thing the smart internet crowd invented and I don't think its a bad thing, as long as people are having fun I don't see the big deal. Some people go to the movies to watch the villains, fans shouldn't feel obligated to boo someone just because they are a heel, they aren't a paid studio audience.

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It really bothers me that heels don't wrestle like heels. Cheating, choking,old school eyes rakes on ring ropes and boot laces etc.

 

There is a lot to what you say, and a huge problem that's been created with everyone having their own "special" moves is that you have heels using high-end babyface offense which produces cheers. Exactly the opposite of the desired result. You also have too many guys that are ostensibly heels that really don't know how to work heel; Randy Orton gets ripped on a lot at this site, but I find Orton is one guy that can be counted on to always remember the little things to do in order to establish which mode he's working in. Jericho used to be pretty good at this, but he's devolved considerably over the years. It goes without saying that Sasha Banks is probably the best at working old-school technical heel in the company. As much as I love watching Asuka, there's a disconnect there in that she has wonderfully hurty-looking offense and a great sadistic smirk when she's locking a move in, of course, these are heel characteristics, but the crowd already loves her and I'm having trouble envisioning what she could possibly do in order to generate heel heat.

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Been thinking about the Brock/Taker HITC. With no threat of big highspot with the Cell and no blood, and no need to keep out interference, HITC just doesn't feel all that necessary. The Cell fits more in the Reigns/Wyatt feud, to keep it one on one.

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The discussion is not about any restriction of free will on whom you can like or how you can react, but on the classic heel/face dynamic and how booking can or can't affect audience reaction. It appears that people are not reacting emotionally to the classic booking structure, but are choosing who they favor by how accomplished a performer a worker is. How do you account for that? How does that change who gets pushed? Who is in control here?

heavy,

RAF

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Oh I wasnt saying that we as fans caused these issues with Edge, Orton, Bryan etc.

Im just saying that we dont exactly have the best track record for picking long term, reliable main event superstars.

Alot of it is timing as well though.

Looking back to the 2014 Rumble - If Reigns won that match and went on to dethrone Orton I think fans would have been fine with that.

Sure we were nuts for Bryan and the story eventually turned to nigh on perfect booking, but Reigns was super over and would have been an acceptable sub if they really didnt want Bryan.

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It really bothers me that heels don't wrestle like heels. Cheating, choking,old school eyes rakes on ring ropes and boot laces etc.

There is a lot to what you say, and a huge problem that's been created with everyone having their own "special" moves is that you have heels using high-end babyface offense which produces cheers. Exactly the opposite of the desired result. You also have too many guys that are ostensibly heels that really don't know how to work heel; Randy Orton gets ripped on a lot at this site, but I find Orton is one guy that can be counted on to always remember the little things to do in order to establish which mode he's working in. Jericho used to be pretty good at this, but he's devolved considerably over the years. It goes without saying that Sasha Banks is probably the best at working old-school technical heel in the company. As much as I love watching Asuka, there's a disconnect there in that she has wonderfully hurty-looking offense and a great sadistic smirk when she's locking a move in, of course, these are heel characteristics, but the crowd already loves her and I'm having trouble envisioning what she could possibly do in order to generate heel heat.
I would argue that these things have become so rare that if a heel was to start doing them on a regular basis they would be cheered. Case in point Alberto Del Rio.

This guy was a 'classic' heel but he got alot of cheers for things like stomping on fingers, winking to the camera while choking someone on the ropes etc.

Finley had the same issue. He was using 'dirty' offence, like the apron beatdown/clubbing spot, that got cheers because it was something totally outside the norm.

Eddie Guerrero's whole run on top was built on Lie, Cheat and Steal which started as a comedy gimmick for a heel tag team. It was so funny/clever though that it got them over as faces.

Who didnt laugh their ass off the first time Eddie hit the mat with a chair, threw it to the opponent, then fell to the ground clutching his head?

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It really bothers me that heels don't wrestle like heels. Cheating, choking,old school eyes rakes on ring ropes and boot laces etc.

 

Same here.  I think the real problem with not letting guys "heel it up" is that it limits your options to protect a heel.  For the most part, the WWE doesn't let guys heel it up too overtly.  You don't see too many guys cheating, putting feet on ropes, trying to leave the ring, going for a chair, pulling the ref, etc.  There aren't too many managers anymore and those that are around don't interfere in matches much (Lana).  And there aren't a lot of stables or teams anymore.  Taken together, that limits your options in a match.  The options for most of the roster are heel pins babyface or babyface pins heel.  Since heels don't win a lot of matches clean, they end up dropping too many falls

 

I really wish someone like Rusev had a Sherri Martel in his corner instead of Lana.  Sherri knew how to be a heel manager.  She'd work overtime to distract the ref or interject herself every time Rusev seemed about to eat a pin.  He'd still lose a lot of matches - by DQ - but he'd probably be better off than he is getting pinned by multiple times by Ziggler or Cena whenever the writers can't think of a more creative outcome.

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Batista - Went from heel to face every 6 months.

 

Not really. I mean he turned twice during his main run - face on HHH and heel on Mysterio.

 

They brought him back as a babyface and it didn't work because of Daniel Bryan, but let's not hold that against him.

 

 

Never!  Heel Batista >>>>>>>>>>>>> face Batista.

 

 

I loved the 2005-2009 babyface run and that he never really got that fan backlash like Cena until his last run. Always came off like a badass babyface and got great responses.

 

Been thinking about the Brock/Taker HITC. With no threat of big highspot with the Cell and no blood, and no need to keep out interference, HITC just doesn't feel all that necessary. The Cell fits more in the Reigns/Wyatt feud, to keep it one on one.

 

Agreed at fitting more, which is why I hoped Rollins/DemonKane would be in the Cell

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Been thinking about the Brock/Taker HITC. With no threat of big highspot with the Cell and no blood, and no need to keep out interference, HITC just doesn't feel all that necessary. The Cell fits more in the Reigns/Wyatt feud, to keep it one on one.

I think someone's gonna bleed, whether Vince likes it or not. What's he going to do, fine and/or suspend the multi-millionaire part-timers?

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The discussion is not about any restriction of free will on whom you can like or how you can react, but on the classic heel/face dynamic and how booking can or can't affect audience reaction. It appears that people are not reacting emotionally to the classic booking structure, but are choosing who they favor by how accomplished a performer a worker is. How do you account for that? How does that change who gets pushed? Who is in control here?

heavy,

RAF

 

Even then, it's a problem since the fact that people aren't willing to play along has led to worse problems for how to make a successful wrestling program as a whole.

 

A wrestling program always needs some villains- but if the fans will just cheer any heel who's entertaining and not play along for them, eventually you have to build the heels around the only ones who'll be guaranteed to get heel heat- the wrestlers who are inept at their jobs, the wrestlers who no one wants to see on the show anymore, and basically anyone getting "go-away heat" instead of "heel heat". 

 

This is added as a problem since, if the wrestlers love everyone who's talented and cheer them all kind of well, you can get a slight reaction- but you also can't kick things into overdrive. Whereas in the old days, if the fans took to one heel like gangbusters to the point the crowd reaction turned them face, that was one of the best signs possible to turn this person face and expect a new boom period, now people like them so much that it's just not a guaranteed boom period if you go all-out for them. In addition, the sheer amount of people the fans react that way for means that you also can't take any one leap of faith anymore, instead being forced to separate the crowds' true loves from their passing fancies- which leads to not being able to go all the way with an up and coming babyface until the call for their push has passed "anger" and "stop watching" and gone to a borderline political movement for their push- and EVEN THEN, the reaction Zack Ryder had gotten in 2011 means that you can't be 100% sure that if the crowd does give that political movement and you agree to finally go all the way with their hero, the crowd's reaction won't then be "lol j/k. U MAD?" 

 

Put those things together, and you're left with a wrestling program where only proven stars, even if their star is falling, are allowed to be top guys, fighting people who the fanbase just wants to see get off their screen forever instead of see them be a main event heel, while all the people with any buzz are relegated to the midcard and lower while trying to truly see who has it and who doesn't before one gets into the upper card- and because some are proving not to truly be there, it can be stop-start for a long period.  AKA, current WWE.

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A wrestling program always needs some villains- but if the fans will just cheer any heel who's entertaining and not play along for them, eventually you have to build the heels around the only ones who'll be guaranteed to get heel heat- the wrestlers who are inept at their jobs, the wrestlers who no one wants to see on the show anymore, and basically anyone getting "go-away heat" instead of "heel heat". 

 

 

 

Just book strong babyfaces. I know people roll their eyes at NXT, but that crowd generally loves heels like Sasha Banks, Kevin Owens, or Tyler Breeze right up until they face off with a well-developed, strong babyface like Bayley, Sami Zayn, or Finn Bálor. 

 

What strong, universal babyface has this company had in the past few years? Cena isn't that guy. Bryan is the only one who I can think of. Maybe Punk, too. Otherwise, they have a bunch of faces that people are bitterly split on at best and lukewarm for at worst.

 

The company just sucks at booking and building up babyfaces, and that's compounded by a significant enough portion of the crowd who will push back against the booking of faces who they did not organically get behind. Maybe if the company just pushed the guys that were organically chosen by the crowd as their champion in a way that didn't overdo it, they'd have strong faces that would get the right reaction for the heels. 

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Ambrose is a pretty strong face- he's good at getting sympathy.  Really think they missed money with him.

 

That said, what you guys have been describing- it's like everything that was wrong with NWO era WCW, and I'd say the lack of comp also hurts WWE bad.  Back in the day, folks could jump fed and build value in the competition, now what can they do if they're being buried.  WWE's success came off WCW's failures such as Jericho/Austin for the most part.

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Ambrose is a great answer. They pretty much had a great never-say-die type of babyface and they cooled him off twice when the crowd was ready for him. They should have just strapped a rocket to him to see what would happen. 

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Ambrose is a great answer. They pretty much had a great never-say-die type of babyface and they cooled him off twice when the crowd was ready for him. They should have just strapped a rocket to him to see what would happen. 

 

If they want to build Ambrose back up they just need him to die at the hands of Lesnar in a pumped up main event on RAW. Brock suplexing the hell out of him while he keeps standing up and asking for more ala Tommy Dreamer...

 

Brock then locks in the Kimura "breaking" his arm and we get the 3 month build to Dean Ambrose returning at the Royal Rumble.

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