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Marvel Universe TV Thread


goodhelmet
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Jesus, you're so in the tank for this, you just can't even fathom what I'm getting at here. I would try to explain it further, but I don't know how much more explicit I can make it and you wouldn't let yourself get it anyway.

You know, you can like something while acknowledging certain parts of it are dumb, right? This is far from some flawless work of art we're talking about.

 

Or, you know, can allow people to enjoy a TV show on their terms without being a jerk about it.

 

It's just a show.  So what if some things don't make sense?  It's not a big deal.  Either you're entertained by it or you're not.  If you're not, then complaining to where you practically bleeding at the fingertips typing your protest isn't the way to go.  Nor is belittling others.

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Where did I say he wasn't allowed to enjoy the show? Enjoy it all you like, for whatever reason you like. But the moment you start debating it's artistic merits, you need a little something more substantial than enthusiasm behind you.

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If you'd characterize this as me "going off" on Jeffrey, then the Internet might not be for you. As of my last response to him, at best, I would use the term "mild exasperation" to describe it, also perhaps with a sense of "beleaguered resignation" mixed in. Like, "Aw, damn. I'm just now realizing I got drawn into a debate on the merits of this show with the dude who's been making grandiose claims about it for a solid month or more."

That said...if the "they" in Jefferey's last post to me refers to "the writers," then I feel like that's about as close to a tacit admission that the Punisher is a badly written character in the first two episodes as one could expect. So...maybe we kinda agree after all?

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I was leaning toward EVA's side of things with the new season of Daredevil after viewing the 1st two episodes, but the third episode might have brought me back to Team Positive.  It went back to what work to me; open debates on whether to kill or not kill mofos and beating down mofos in tight spaces.  The dialogue was still corny, but yeah.  It's a superhero tv show.  It's always going to have bits of corn.

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Well, Vile has clearly been in the tank for this show for a while now. He hasn't even tried to hide it. Check his post history, if you like (but, I mean, I wouldn't). You won't have to look far to find him grandstanding for it in the lead up.

 

I'm aware of who VileOne is. And I'll never try to shame somebody for enjoying something.

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Sorry Jingus, most of your complaints ignore the facts.

Sorry for the shitload of spoiler tags in my rebuttal (I left out the ones I didn't have any great follow-up argument for):

 

Do you mean Matt's wound?  I don't think it was multiple days.  

No, I mean the blood trail that Matt followed from the Irish bar to Frank's apartment. That was, at the very least, like 24 hours later, if not multiple days. Regardless, no blood would still be anything remotely like red liquid after that long.

 

Keep in mind that Daredevil has enhanced senses that he got from exposure to chemicals.  Not sure why it should work exactly like a post-concussion symptom.

It reeked of plot contrivance to me. "We need Punisher to win the first fight on a countout, and then to kinda-sorta win the second fight clean, but not COMPLETELY clean cuz we need to keep Daredevil strong... I know, let's work an injury!"

It might not have been the roof next door.  The fight could've taken them some buildings away.

They didn't go that far, the fight didn't involve them running any long distance away. And it's not like Matt could've crawled any further, he was completely knocked out by the shot.

 

Did you not see the Swastika tattoo on his neck?  The man is clearly a butter knife, not exactly the sharpest one in the drawer.  Once Punisher walked in the shop, he was obviously a dead man.

I've known a lot of total idiots in my life. I've even known a couple of guys who were, indeed, convicted for statutory rape. And despite their level of idiocy or perversity, I've had absolutely zero incidents of anyone ever attempting to sell me kiddie porn. I mean, seriously, have you ever had some random stranger just up and offer you that stuff?

 

Not sure if this is unrealistic are not.  Are DA's not allowed to play roles in any type of police task forces or stings?  

Hell no, they wouldn't be in any kind of position of power during a raid. Every DA is a civilian, they have no law-enforcement authority, they can't legally give any orders to police officers; and no SWAT commander would ever allow any not-a-cop to be ordering the team around in the middle of a live-fire mission.

 

She's a corrupt DA and there's more explanation for this.

Regardless of how corrupt she was or how badly she wanted to kill Castle, this is simply not the way to do it. She's giving orders without authority, and the content itself of those orders is flatly illegal, and it's likely to end in the death of a popular superhero and a witness who's supposed to be in protective custody, and she's got two LAWYERS watching her do it all. That's not corruption, that's incompetence. And this character is supposed to be very, very competent. Her plan should be more like "have Castle arrested, then two days later he's quietly shanked in prison" rather than some Peckinpah machine-gun bullshit out in the open and in front of several witnesses.

 

He had a stolen police radio with tactical bands.  Daredevil found them because he found Punisher's hideout and heard the frequencies on the stolen radio.

I must've missed that second part, but I believe you. ...of course, that doesn't explain all the OTHER times that various people can magically predict where others are going to be in this series; how the hell did the mobsters find Frank in the park? How the hell did Matt find out where they kept Frank after they kidnapped him?

 

The cops were clearly trying to avoid shooting Daredevil and didn't want to shoot him.  Plus it was raining and they were constantly moving targets.  And one was able to hit Punisher.

Even despite all that stuff, they should've riddled Castle with dozens of bullets. It wasn't a hard shot for a trained sniper, which any SWAT guys with those weapons would probably be. And, hey cops: where's ALL YOUR OTHER WEAPONS? Nobody tried to break out any tear gas, or stun grenades, or water cannons, or even just some plain old shields and clubs. There's a reason why the acronym stands for Special Weapons And Tactics, those guys have all kinds of unusual toys which are designed to end fights in a big damn hurry. After all, this was A PLANNED AMBUSH, they had all the advantage in the world to set up a perfect trap that nobody could possibly avoid. But no, they instead set up this bullshit John Woo scenario where "pick a place with as many exits and hiding spots as humanly possible, wait for the enemy to walk up to you, then shoot him in the face" was apparently the entirety of their brilliant plan.

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fuckin' limited quote-box numbers:

I thought what Castle did in the hospital was reckless and insane personally.  But I don't really care.  Even when he told that excuse ot Karen, I thought it was insane.  If he was using something without a spread radius like a shotgun, his explanation would've made more sense.  But that's what Frank said and believes.  Not saying he's right, but that's what they went with.

I could buy that... if they made any attempt to show Castle as being some disconnected-from-reality kind of psychopath. But they don't, at all. In most situations he's shown to be in complete physical control of everything at all times. The implied message doesn't seem to be "Castle doesn't realize how reckless he is", it seems to be "Karen really wasn't in any danger". Which is bullshit. If he's such a good shot, why did he fire at Grotto at least half a dozen times at the hospital and never hit him once, and in fact the missed shots sometimes came closer to hitting Karen than Grotto? Also, any number of his shots could've punched right through the walls and killed someone on the other side.

 

It's just a show.  So what if some things don't make sense?  It's not a big deal.

And with most superhero shows, I wouldn't care all that much. Except that on this show, in the first season, they took extra-special care to make everything as realistic and procedural as they could possibly do about a superpowered blind guy in a devil costume. The second season seems much less grounded, they're just making up more shit as they're going along. Sometimes it feels less like the first season of Daredevil and more like some of the shit which eventually got me to stop watching Agents of SHIELD.

 

It does get better with episode 3.

That's true, it did. The whole Frank/Matt dialogue on the roof was interesting enough that, for the only time in my entire life, I was actually going "okay, what this product needs is less Rosario Dawson and Deborah Ann Woll, let's get back to the sausagefest with two macho guys growling at each other". (Although, even here, they fucked something up: the final Sophie's Choice bit with the gun was taken directly from the comics... but in the comics, Castle wasn't dumb enough to give Murdock a working gun that would actually fire.) And that awesome fight scene in the hallway and on the stairs was exactly what the season had been lacking in its first couple of episodes, Daredevil just wrecking everybody's shit with reckless blunt-instruments-everywhere abandon. That was GREAT; more of that, please.
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OK I think I can answer one of these:

 

 

I must've missed that second part, but I believe you. ...of course, that doesn't explain all the OTHER times that various people can magically predict where others are going to be in this series; how the hell did the mobsters find Frank in the park? How the hell did Matt find out where they kept Frank after they kidnapped him?
 

 

 

Here you go.

 

The mobsters found him in the park because they tore apart the city tracking down Punisher.  They found his hideout and Finn Cooley found a map of the city.  On Frank's map he pinned a picture of the carousel and it has tickets on it.  It is probably tickets from the day his family were killed.  Finn looks at the map and says with realization, "That's who you are."

 

Punisher returns to the carousel, and Finn Cooley and his goons had it scoped out because they knew he'd go back there and got the drop on Frank.  

 

Daredevil was tracking down Punisher.  Daredevil knew the Irish are tearing apart the city.  Bret the good cop informs Daredevil that the Irish put a bounty on Frank's head.  Daredevil hears the radio report of the shots at the carousel where Frank got snatched.

 

Daredevil GOES to the park and finds the aftermath of the scene and the bodies are there.  He gets there before the police.  One of the Irish thugs is still there and on the ground.  He was left for dead basically.  Daredevil grabs him, breaks his wrist and tortures him.  He interrogates the Irish thug and asks, "Where is he."  So Irish thug squeals and tells Daredevil where Frank Castle is.  THAT'S HOW DAREDEVIL KNEW WHERE TO FIND HIM!

 

Basically Jingus, the show sort of references how all these things might happen.  It's just not blatantly spoonfed all the time.

 

Here's my final word on DA Reyes:

 

A lot of what she is doing is pretty much illegal.  However, Murdock & Nelson aren't powerful enough to really expose her.  She's a very powerful DA.  And there's a specific reason she is doing what she is doing.  They explain all this later.  You just have to keep watching.  

 

As for my enthusiasm for this show, I openly love this show, and I'm never going to hide it. Second, if you think I'm bad, watch Collider Movie Talk or Collider Heroes sometime.

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Again, I'm in complete agreement with Jingus on the subject of DD's plot logic.

I wouldn't hold season 1 up as the paragon of perfect plotting or anything, but for the most part, Goddard & DeKnight crossed their t's, dotted their lower case j's, and showed you - on screen - the due dilligence on how they moved their various pieces from point A to B to C and so on and set up their big confrontations. That was one of it's best qualities, something that set it apart from other superhero shows (and movies, even!) as much as the action and violence.

By comparison, the plotting this season, and ESPECIALLY the borderline disastrous first 2 episodes, is downright loosey-goosey. The new guys in charge don't seem to have the same attention to detail, and it's a lesser show for it.

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You're right that he just missed a lot of that stuff from episode 4, but the first two episodes are a mess, man, plain and simple.

It's more than a little disconcerting that the showrunners wrote the 2 worst episodes of the season so far (I'm up to 9 now).

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With the tickets, I was just wondering "wait, what the hell are those?" because we didn't get a good look at them and I didn't understand what they were supposed to signify. With the other bit at the carousel... if that happened, then I guess I walked away from the screen for a minute, because I've got no memory of that whatsoever. Mea culpa.

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I will say this.  If I don't get to pork out on Bullseye in season 3, I will riot.

 

This season I was fine with it.  We got a fantastic performance out of Jon Bernthal as Frank Castle, and he was pitch perfect.  But you can't keep putting Bullseye off like this.

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