Joshi Puroresu Discussion Thread

[Kevin Wilson]

2 minutes ago, Hoope said:

That's basically all theyve been doing(or at least trying to) all year. English subtitles mandatory in the YT version of Stardom World pushed 90% to western fans and shoving gaijin into EVERYTHING. Or else, what was all this? Cuz it certainly wasnt great

Problem is it's done so badly. Like joshi fans care to see sloppy gaijin who cant keep up or take some chops take up card space, on top of bad booking with 9 other promotions doing better

Stardom has been using gaijins forever, I don't think that's for us. If it was they'd be flying in Americans, not Europeans that most fans haven't heard of. It would be Heidi and LuFisto, not Courtney and Lizzy. Stardom World is catered to US fans but not the product itself any more so than usual since I am assuming the bulk of their revenue is still tickets/merchandise and not SW. Stardom World with subtitles is a side way to make money, not what drives the show. Stardom is never going to change their show philosophy because of American fans. Like he said above, enjoy it for what it is or don't watch it, that's the way they look at it.

[Richard Nixon]

We're thankful that we have more subscriptions than we ever have. That's revenue that we didn't have just one year ago. Stardom World and the online store have made a huge impact for us.

Some people don't like the product, but it's ok. There are many people that do enjoy it.  

It may be bad marketing to say "well if they don't want to watch, they won't" but you can't win over everyone. 

There will always be gaijin in Stardom, it will never ever change. And it's understandable that some fans don't like it. There are many that do.

[Richard Nixon]

And yes, ticket sales are number one as far as making profit goes. Merchandise is next. 

[Trocar Slush Weasel]

4 minutes ago, we.are.stardom said:

There will always be gaijin in Stardom, it will never ever change. And it's understandable that some fans don't like it. There are many that do.

[Richard Nixon]

We generally sell out Shinkiba or come close every time. That's about 300 fans that will be there almost every time. The same fans pretty much. Stardom diehards. A lot are guys that travel to every show, be it Osaka or Nagoya, etc.  But usually those fans are always gonna be there. 

Then you have the Korakuen fans. They only go to Korakuen. But they are there every time. Include the diehards and for Korakuen you can usually count on at least 800. 

That means anyone else, you try to pull them in with the card, with new gaijin, with celebrities, what ever it may be. 

The Stardom crowd generally is not the same crowd as any of the other promotions. Sure you get some fans that go to everything, but for the most part, anyone that comes to Stardom comes because they want the style that we present as opposed to the other companies. They expect gaijin wrestlers, because no one else does it that much. 

Diehard international joshi fans want cool angles all the time. Want a lot of wrestlers from other Japanese companies to come in. But it's not gonna happen. Anyone that follows joshi knows this. You can see the same wrestlers on cards from oher companies. Oz, Wave, Ice Ribbon, JWP, Seedling etc. It'll never happen in Stardom. He doesn't want to be the same. 

#1 goal is to sell tickets. Without Japanese fans, there is no Stardom.  To that end, we do what we can to make things cool for international fans. 

But it's booked for Japan. 

[.STAP]

1 hour ago, we.are.stardom said:

Diehard international joshi fans want cool angles all the time. [...] But it's not gonna happen.

What did he mean by this?

[.STAP]

2 hours ago, Kevin Wilson said:

I mean Oz Academy has been pissing me off for years but they don't give a damn about my opinion

What has OZ Academy done other than provide us with good shows of mature women graps with a mixture of contemporary joshi? It's one of the few joshi promotions that has actual angles and heated feuds rather than happy fun time. The concept of a promotion having a regular army made up of sadistic heels is also fascinating. I find it fun to watch. It's the best.

Sorry for the double post. Quoting in an edit is seemingly impossible.
 

[lostinube]

I'm assuming things like interpromotional matches, the big name joshi freelancers and the mainstay comedy wrestlers.

Anyway, yes, Japanese companies tend to focus on their Japanese audiences. As an example, I'm connected in various ways to the SASUKE (Japan version of Ninja Warrior) community here in Japan. Despite overseas fans loving the Japanese version and many international competitors wanting to do the "real" course at Midoriyama, TBS is not a big fan of putting out the yearly show because it isn't the ratings draw that it used to be. They don't care that on broadcast night people are trying to find a stream of the show because it won't impact viewer ratings here in Japan.

Edit: I should point out that I don't necessarily agree with the above but it's an example of how companies in Japan often operate.

[Kevin Wilson]

6 minutes ago, .STAP said:

What has OZ Academy done other than provide us with good shows of mature women graps with a mixture of contemporary joshi? It's one of the few joshi promotions that has actual angles and heated feuds rather than happy fun time. The concept of a promotion having a regular army made up of sadistic heels is also fascinating. I find it fun to watch. It's the best.

Sorry for the double post. Quoting in an edit is seemingly impossible.
 

I don't like Ozaki-gun matches as I don't like the match style, but I've accepted that is their style so I don't watch them expecting them to suddenly change that style. I just don't watch the main events   Not everyone likes the same things in wrestling, I seem to have accepted that better than most other fans.

[Overly Critical Man]

Ice Ribbon's happy fun time company structure is the type of Joshi I like. Maybe I just like watching wrestling that doesn't aggravate me with dumb storylines for a change since the booking in most places is in the pits.

RibbonMania is shaping up pretty nicely btw with the Infinity title tourney. Team Kurumi all the way. 

[Hoope]

1 hour ago, Overly Critical Man said:

Ice Ribbon's happy fun time company structure is the type of Joshi I like. Maybe I just like watching wrestling that doesn't aggravate me with dumb storylines for a change since the booking in most places is in the pits.

RibbonMania is shaping up pretty nicely btw with the Infinity title tourney. Team Kurumi all the way. 

The happy fun time friendship club structure only works if the product is generally consistent on the approach of that structure and when the in ring product and stuff is not only good but, fun. They're one of the very few doing it right, and the only one in joshi who has it right at the moment. At the same time, aside from personal veteran stuff like Kansai and Ozaki, OZ is kinda almost, if not, just as consistent on the opposite structure, as annoying and repetitive it may get. 

[JML]

14 hours ago, .STAP said:

What did he mean by this?

Exactly how he means with constant angles. I see people on twitter and message boards react the same way to New Japan booking on how stale it is. People should watch old NOAH or 90s AJPW to see real stagnant booking.

I wonder if people would feel the same with the 80s in terms of the Crush Gals vs Dump's Army which lasted for two years. 

 

 

[.STAP]

3 hours ago, Overly Critical Man said:

Ice Ribbon's happy fun time company structure is the type of Joshi I like. Maybe I just like watching wrestling that doesn't aggravate me with dumb storylines for a change since the booking in most places is in the pits.

RibbonMania is shaping up pretty nicely btw with the Infinity title tourney. Team Kurumi all the way. 

Well, when you consider Ice Ribbon attendance numbers and you compare them with OZ, JWP, Senjo and Stardom who regularly run actual feuds and angles and get peak attendance numbers as a result, something even SEAdLINNNG has adopted, it appears to be a successful business model. This "let's all be friends" stuff never drew a dime. Most people like to see things actually happening in their wrestling.

[Kevin Wilson]

Its impossible to know if a promotion is 'successful' without seeing their books and knowing what their goals are. Since Ice Ribbon has been running for ten years and had over 80 events in 2016 (with 25 'making tape') I consider them a successful promotion. Their attendances are low because they run small intimate places, unless you have evidence they don't still make money between tickets and merchandising, you're just making things up to suit your personal taste. They are actually a bad example anyway as both of their Korakuen Hall shows had over 900 (I could only find one announced attendance listed but the other looked about the same) and they had 1,500 for their anniversary show which is larger than any event by JWP, Stardom, or WAVE. Bringing up SEAdLINNNG at all as a 'successful' business model puts your argument in dire straits since they only run every other month and have never had an attendance as high as Ice Ribbon's highest for the year.

Again, because a promotion isn't your cup of tea, doesn't mean they aren't successful or accomplishing what they want to accomplish. Just don't watch them, but pretending like they aren't successful because you don't like them makes for a weak argument.

[.STAP]

1 hour ago, Kevin Wilson said:

Its impossible to know if a promotion is 'successful' without seeing their books and knowing what their goals are. Since Ice Ribbon has been running for ten years and had over 80 events in 2016 (with 25 'making tape') I consider them a successful promotion. Their attendances are low because they run small intimate places, unless you have evidence they don't still make money between tickets and merchandising, you're just making things up to suit your personal taste. They are actually a bad example anyway as both of their Korakuen Hall shows had over 900 (I could only find one announced attendance listed but the other looked about the same) and they had 1,500 for their anniversary show which is larger than any event by JWP, Stardom, or WAVE. Bringing up SEAdLINNNG at all as a 'successful' business model puts your argument in dire straits since they only run every other month and have never had an attendance as high as Ice Ribbon's highest for the year.

Again, because a promotion isn't your cup of tea, doesn't mean they aren't successful or accomplishing what they want to accomplish. Just don't watch them, but pretending like they aren't successful because you don't like them makes for a weak argument.

You're accusing me of hating Ice Ribbon when my username is based on an Ice Ribbon tag team. Hilarious stuff, lad. I have always been a fan of Ice Ribbon and I enjoy watching their wrestlers and the shows they put on. No where in my post did I say I didn't like Ice Ribbon. In fact, there isn't a joshi promotion out there that I don't like. I enjoy all of them. You should calm down a bit.

 

I'm just pointing out that they have the lowest attendance numbers in joshi right now because they never run any feuds or angles that generate buzz or interest. The Anniversary show had several interesting stories going into and then it had loads of outside talent booked. Those types of shows are always going to draw. I highly doubt IR will ever even come close to that number in the near future so using that as a proof of them being as or more successful than JWP, Stardom and WAVE is absurd. Ice Ribbon has had historically low Korakuen numbers throughout their existence, one decent draw doesn't erase that.

 

SEAdLINNNG runs Korakuen semi-regularly once a month and averages 700-800, something Ice Ribbon could never dream of doing. Even in small venues like Shinjuku FACE, SEAdLINNNG drew 400.. something Ice Ribbon could never do. When Ice Ribbon did their "Muscle Venus anniversary show" at Korakuen last year they drew so badly that the 80 or so people who attended sat around the ring rather than in the bleachers. They don't draw good numbers and you are naive if you think Neoplus doesn't look at those abysmal numbers and try to find ways to fix them; hell, this year IR had their talent wrestle in bathing suits (with the added draw of .STAP reunited and wrestling their final match together) to get 927 at Korakuen. They have made an effort to improve their attendance this year more so than I can remember so at least they are learning from their mistakes.

[Kevin Wilson]

17 minutes ago, .STAP said:

You're accusing me of hating Ice Ribbon when my username is based on an Ice Ribbon tag team. Hilarious stuff, lad. I have always been a fan of Ice Ribbon and I enjoy watching their wrestlers and the shows they put on. No where in my post did I say I didn't like Ice Ribbon. In fact, there isn't a joshi promotion out there that I don't like. I enjoy all of them. You should calm down a bit.

 

I'm just pointing out that they have the lowest attendance numbers in joshi right now because they never run any feuds or angles that generate buzz or interest. The Anniversary show had several interesting stories going into and then it had loads of outside talent booked. Those types of shows are always going to draw. I highly doubt IR will ever even come close to that number in the near future so using that as a proof of them being as or more successful than JWP, Stardom and WAVE is absurd. Ice Ribbon has had historically low Korakuen numbers throughout their existence, one decent draw doesn't erase that.

 

SEAdLINNNG runs Korakuen semi-regularly once a month and averages 700-800, something Ice Ribbon could never dream of doing. Even in small venues like Shinjuku FACE, SEAdLINNNG drew 400.. something Ice Ribbon could never do. When Ice Ribbon did their "Muscle Venus anniversary show" at Korakuen last year they drew so badly that the 80 or so people who attended sat around the ring rather than in the bleachers. They don't draw good numbers and you are naive if you think Neoplus doesn't look at those abysmal numbers and try to find ways to fix them; hell, this year IR had their talent wrestle in bathing suits (with the added draw of .STAP reunited and wrestling their final match together) to get 927 at Korakuen. They have made an effort to improve their attendance this year more so than I can remember so at least they are learning from their mistakes.

SEAdLINNNG doesn't run once a month, its just hard to take your 'facts' seriously when some are just objectively incorrect. They have run Korakuen five times in 12 months. If you can't present a case without factually incorrect statements mixed with opinions that can't be proven such as hypothetical event attendances then there is no use in having a discussion. Maybe you should calm down and come back when you have accurate statistics.

[zev]

I'm looking for any opinion on the "Best" top to bottom full Joshi card this year...one card you're willing to say "Hey watch this." Any qualifiers you want to use for the term Best is fine by me.

Any takers?

 

[JML]

13 minutes ago, zev said:

I'm looking for any opinion on the "Best" top to bottom full Joshi card this year...one card you're willing to say "Hey watch this." Any qualifiers you want to use for the term Best is fine by me.

Any takers?

 

I would say the recent Sendai Girls Korakuen Hall Show that happened on Election Day. Very good card up and down that's worth checking out even though some of the undercard is clipped. 

[Hoope]

5 hours ago, .STAP said:

Well, when you consider Ice Ribbon attendance numbers and you compare them with OZ, JWP, Senjo and Stardom who regularly run actual feuds and angles and get peak attendance numbers as a result, something even SEAdLINNNG has adopted, it appears to be a successful business model. This "let's all be friends" stuff never drew a dime. Most people like to see things actually happening in their wrestling.

Ice Ribbon Korakuen numbers this year drew either the same or more than all but 1 JWP Korakuen show, including the end to Ozaki/Arisa that did around the the same number Ice Ribbon Korakuen in July did, that then had Best Friends/SEAdLINNNG tag that wasnt a feud that did the peak, Stardom's less-than-a-month-long feuds brought into Korakuen if there ever even is a feud or anything happening(rarely) are always either the same average or lower numbers than the others, for example the first Io/Mayu match this year where they build their match up on every single show building to it w/Kairi/Santana for the 3rd time did less than their usual 950, the month later with Oedo Tai vs Thunder Rock did even less after they faced Threedom in 2 title matches the previous 2 shows before as build to that and lost both while Io/Bito with no build at all, Stardom vs gaijin which was nothing, and Thunder Rock facing Meiko who decided she wanted to team with Kairi for absolutely no reason whatsoever that also had no build(cuz Meiko wasn't there) that led to nothing did higher than both(peak was a full tournament show and Io/Kairi with no feud or build), SEAdLINNNG's 2 biggest draws are a return show with no heat and an anniversary show that didnt have anything except the main event tag whose "build" was Meiko boycotting SEAdLINNNG's existance after Yoshiko came back then suddenly doing a tag match with them while the other 2 did less than IR's 2 Korakuen but they're a "supercard" vanity joint so who cares. 

 

3 hours ago, .STAP said:

I'm just pointing out that they have the lowest attendance numbers in joshi right now because they never run any feuds or angles that generate buzz or interest. The Anniversary show had several interesting stories going into and then it had loads of outside talent booked. Those types of shows are always going to draw. I highly doubt IR will ever even come close to that number in the near future so using that as a proof of them being as or more successful than JWP, Stardom and WAVE is absurd. Ice Ribbon has had historically low Korakuen numbers throughout their existence, one decent draw doesn't erase that.

My sides are gone

WAVE literally has drawn with the worst of Ice Ribbon Korakuen attendance, STILL DOES, and they rarely ever draw more than 150 in Shinkiba when even IR and fucking REINA of all feds can do that

[.STAP]

@Kevin Wilson

 

Hypothetical event attendances? I didn't want to have to go through the effort of breaking out the numbers, but since Mr. Wilson wants to be combative.. Ice Ribbon ran Shinjuku FACE last year, they drew 365 with two title matches. SEAdLINNNG outdrew that this year with Big Match Veda Scott in their semi-main event: 399.

 

You want more side-by-side comparisons?

 

When Ice Ribbon decided to run multiple Korakuen events last year, they drew: 522 (3/12/2015), 748 (6/24/2015), 597 (7/29/2015), a family of 4 (8/17/2015), 599 (8/30/2015), 522 (10/17/2015) and 1079 (12/31/2015 * biggest Ribbon Mania number ever; added draw of Neko's retirement and promise of running a Korakuen show with bathing suit-clad wrestlers if they drew over 1000).

 

Compared to SEADLINNG: 855 (8/26/2015), 786 (11/25/2015), 811 (1/11/2016), 988 (3/7/2016), 850 (5/18/2016), 987 (7/11/2016) and 708 (9/28/2016)

 

It's not hypothetical. They can't fucking run SEADLINNG's Korakuen schedule or they would lose more than they earn. They can't do it. This isn't an opinion. This is objective fact. This is real. They drew so badly last year that they've narrowed their Korakuen Hall schedule back to just three this year, which is honestly for the best. They run smaller venues for a reason.

 

@Hoope
My point is, hot angles draw in wrestling. Period. Last year Stardom was doing crazy numbers with their Satomaru/Sendai Girls feud. Yoshiko/Act, despite turning out the way things, was hot as fuck and drew 1050. This year they're doing good numbers so far with Io's heel turn. It wiill probably do a good number on Thursday. Ice Ribbon's Anniversary had an actual heated feud between Sera/Yuuka, Maya Yukihi's heel turn, Best Friends in general, Fujimoto/Sakura, etc, and it did a good number. The shows draw when there are stories and angles to be invested in, or dream matches. Either works.

 

WAVE draws like shit, I know, but still, ZABUN has the most signed talent of any joshi promotion and none of their wrestlers have quit to go freelance so they must be doing something right (They have exactly 16 wrestlers signed for people who need to be spoonfed every bit of information). And are we really talking about "vanity feds" in joshi, where Satomaru has been booking herself on top of Senjo for a DECADE? 

[Overly Critical Man]

 Gatoh Move runs shows in what looks to be someone's apartment. I'm sure they have the worst attendance of all.

[zev]

3 hours ago, JML said:

I would say the recent Sendai Girls Korakuen Hall Show that happened on Election Day. Very good card up and down that's worth checking out even though some of the undercard is clipped. 

Cheers for that. I hope someday an unclipped version of that card makes the airwaves.

[Kevin Wilson]

The "crazy line" has been crossed, I try not to engage with people that are more than 20% crazier than I am. It is how I have stayed so youthful and positive in life.

Anyway, I don't think this will change anyone's opinion of Kyoko  But here is the title match where she won the belt: 

 

[Kevin Wilson]

2 hours ago, zev said:

Cheers for that. I hope someday an unclipped version of that card makes the airwaves.

Its incredibly annoying. As shown above I have no issue buying events from Japan but while some promotions make their events easy to buy (JWP and Ice Ribbon in particular), Sendai Girls' only sells some events that made TV.  So there is some hope for that show since it made TV but it seems random. I just wish they sold shows that didn't make TV as well as I really really like their rookies a ton but rarely get to watch them.

[Hoope]

9 hours ago, .STAP said:

@Hoope
My point is, hot angles draw in wrestling. Period. Last year Stardom was doing crazy numbers with their Satomaru/Sendai Girls feud. Yoshiko/Act, despite turning out the way things, was hot as fuck and drew 1050. This year they're doing good numbers so far with Io's heel turn. It wiill probably do a good number on Thursday. Ice Ribbon's Anniversary had an actual heated feud between Sera/Yuuka, Maya Yukihi's heel turn, Best Friends in general, Fujimoto/Sakura, etc, and it did a good number. The shows draw when there are stories and angles to be invested in, or dream matches. Either works.

 

WAVE draws like shit, I know, but still, ZABUN has the most signed talent of any joshi promotion and none of their wrestlers have quit to go freelance so they must be doing something right (They have exactly 16 wrestlers signed for people who need to be spoonfed every bit of information). And are we really talking about "vanity feds" in joshi, where Satomaru has been booking herself on top of Senjo for a DECADE? 

What "crazy" numbers? The Sendai/Stardom feud didn't create some high rise in anyone's number but Sendai, if you believe the numbers Sendai call. The numbers those shows drew on their own were just the usual Stardom numbers unless you had Act returning/retiring(the return coming alongside a tournament final btw) and Mio teaming with Io for the last time. Hell, Kairi/Mayu, the main event before the first Meiko/Kairi main event, basically did the same number. It was a small boost from most of the shows before but wasn't crazy at all.

Also that shitty Stardom faction war mess was never hot. There wasn't even any build for Act/Yoshiko cuz Act got "sick" and missed every other Feburary show before the actual match besides one, which I cant find anything on but it seems to point to Act herself being a draw, somewhat in a bigger match. 

 

I don't know about Sera/Yuuka actually being heat, and there indeed was Fujimoto/Sakura, but the Maya thing was just her OZ gimmick, as the lowest member in the Ozakigun, some she had already been doing for a month or 2 so she can be the one to eat pins in tags, being carried over to her home promotion once and once only cuz Ozaki was there. Miyako's match most likely had more to do with the number they got than that.

 

Quote

And are we really talking about "vanity feds" in joshi, where Satomaru has been booking herself on top of Senjo for a DECADE? 

Basically all of them are but I said "supercard" vanity, which in SEAdLINNNG's case, aren't very super, but still. All the others are regularly running, even Marvelous. SEAdLINNNG runs generally every other month apart from September-October this year which was a move from Korakuen to Shinjuku and this and next month. Hell, they originally structured main events as 2000s joshi nostalgia matches till yoshiko came back.